Jump to content


Tournament Hand


  • Please log in to reply
313 replies to this topic

#261 JubilantLankyLad

JubilantLankyLad

    you can't see me!

  • Members
  • 9,397 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:in hiding
  • Favorite Poker Game:PANDA

Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:27 PM

I too am glad someone else agrees.
there were no special effects, no special effects.

#262 JubilantLankyLad

JubilantLankyLad

    you can't see me!

  • Members
  • 9,397 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:in hiding
  • Favorite Poker Game:PANDA

Posted 13 August 2012 - 06:31 PM

Posted Image
there were no special effects, no special effects.

#263 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:53 PM

folding pre or open folding on the flop is 100% the best play in this hand
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#264 king_tanner

king_tanner

    Poker Forum C***

  • Members
  • 11,672 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Favorite Poker Game:Crazy Pineapple hi/lo

Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:41 PM

tl/dr
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Wednesday, January 5th, 2011, 8:14 PM)
$5,000 lol wish it was 5000

#265 looshle

looshle

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 5,284 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:50 PM

Akashenk, I can't tell if you're a joke account or not. I suspect that you are and for those reasons I'm not going to post a long winded answer as to why c/c is infinitely better than c/r.I have played MTTs for a living for almost 10 years now. I've gone broke a few times along the way and have been forced to look at every situation without ego, with an open mind and constantly being self aware.C/C here is by far the best play and not even close to any other option. The only time I could ever think about c/r is to induce a 3b jam by someone I have a very rare dynamic with, which basically means almost never.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

I don't berate players unless they are donkeys making bad plays


#266 HighwayStar

HighwayStar

    Tangled up in blue.

  • Members
  • 8,103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, England

Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:34 PM

Yep c/f is close to optimal when the opponents range is so well defined. Good analysis Merby.
.

#267 Jordan

Jordan

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,032 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:59 PM

hey douches.in case you forgothttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0/threadnow stop feeding the troll.

#268 CobaltBlue

CobaltBlue

    The Outlier

  • Members
  • 10,364 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Royal Palm Beach, FL
  • Favorite Poker Game:Hold 'Em, Crazy Pineapple, 2-7 TD

Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:47 AM

When did Phil Hellmuth join FCP?

#269 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:41 AM

View Postlooshle, on 13 August 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Akashenk, I can't tell if you're a joke account or not. I suspect that you are and for those reasons I'm not going to post a long winded answer as to why c/c is infinitely better than c/r.I have played MTTs for a living for almost 10 years now. I've gone broke a few times along the way and have been forced to look at every situation without ego, with an open mind and constantly being self aware.C/C here is by far the best play and not even close to any other option. The only time I could ever think about c/r is to induce a 3b jam by someone I have a very rare dynamic with, which basically means almost never.
You guys always seem to have an excuse for why you're not going to explain why you think c/c is better than c/r. Why is that? I mean, you just spent something like a hundred words questioning my motivations, providing a partial history of your life, describing your metaphysical condition and stating your theseis that you don't like the c/r play... and not a single shred of information about why, not a single assault on the various points I have made throughout the thread.Of course, this sort of self-interested intellectualism is nothing new to this thread, and I would guess overall forum as well. If the logical arguments for why c/r is such a bad a play were so strong, then I don't think we would be hearing about people's level of experience, or success, or state of zen clarity. We wouldn't be finding out about how many degrees the have, or how many admirers they have, etc., etc. Surely you all must realize that bringing these things up is a certain idicator of how weak your argument is, or at least how poorly you are able to convey it.Strange that a lawyer never stands up before a judge and says, "Excuse me, your honor, you should rule in my favor because I have been practicing law for 10 years, have lost a few cases in that time and am now completely in tune and aware of the law." You never hear an engineer say "I don't need to show you why this building will not fall down. I am a great engineer. Everyone says so."

#270 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:03 AM

Because at this point when every argument has been laid out for you perfectly as to why c/ring is horrible, you refuse to accept it. Therefore, there's a need to whip out your credentials because in this particular instance it comes down to experience and success. And I'm sorry, someone who has played MTTs as long as looshle, has been as successful as looshle, and has probably gone through every situation imaginable when it comes to tournaments, is probably someone whose advice and strat I would trust more than someone like you who grinds 1/2 with their social security check and curses those damn Internet kids for not playing real poker.And when EVERYONE in this god damn thread has told you multiple times you are wrong, and give you a multitude of reasons why, you don't think that maybe, just maybe you're being a fucktard at this point and now are just arguing to argue?And LOL if you really believe that math analysis is real, really proves your intelligence right there.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#271 Gallo

Gallo

    I'm not JC

  • Members
  • 9,662 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago
  • Favorite Poker Game:unlimited hold 'em

Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:37 AM

Lol
QUOTE (no not baxter @ Monday, February 9th, 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ya srsly why not just make a 2 hour dinner break so ppl can go to outback and get a fkn bloomin onion


For rakeback at:
FTP, BoDog, UB, Absolute, Cake

2008 Neg-O TOC NL Champion

#272 irishguy

irishguy

    Your weakness is disgusting to me.

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • Location:London, Ont

Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:56 AM

Every point you've made about your 'logic' has been refuted over and over and yet you continue to claim it hasn't. Every question has been answered often multiple times but then a million pages pass and you claim they haven't been. You've continued to conflict yourself repeatedly: first you say when you c r not another chip goes in the pot-then its not another chip goes in unless you either of you improve-then its well if you hit your flush villain may bet Aj Aq etc and you can check raise-or maybe value bet-this has changed at least four times to try to justify a horrible thought process which seems heavily based on getting to the river when you know what the turn is-which you wouldn't when you c r the flop .When myself and others have said IF you're going to take this line on the flop you should be leading this turn-your response is I thought about that but I like the turn card and think I can see if I get there for free and to i'm worried that the 6 may have completed the draw-i can not even wrap my head around this logic. You have said when we c c c you don't believe villain betting again "tells us anything or narrows their range" this is where I've stated and it's been agreed upon that villain could be betting 100% of his range on the flop and you state this-I assumed it to mean villain would bet 100% of their range on the turn. But then you changed it to villain may be value betting a hand like Aj on the turn-and if we would've c r we'd get to see our draw for free cus he wouldn't bet Aj again this is so flawed to try to justify a flop play cus you know what the turn is-if he's betting Aj here who gives a shit we are behind and not getting a good price fold and move on... Like I said I'm not sure English is your first language so maybe your not doing this intentionally
gmanshade owes me $500: Since July 6th, 2009 and counting.....


#273 Mercury69

Mercury69

    Half man! Half man!

  • Members
  • 14,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pftph!
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:11 AM

It's like debating a Republican
"We had all the momentum. We were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look west, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark, that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." —Raoul Duke, Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

"Those are brave men knocking at the door. Let's go and kill them!" - Tyrion Lannister

#274 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:47 PM

View Postdonk4life, on 14 August 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

Because at this point when every argument has been laid out for you perfectly as to why c/ring is horrible, you refuse to accept it. Therefore, there's a need to whip out your credentials because in this particular instance it comes down to experience and success. And I'm sorry, someone who has played MTTs as long as looshle, has been as successful as looshle, and has probably gone through every situation imaginable when it comes to tournaments, is probably someone whose advice and strat I would trust more than someone like you who grinds 1/2 with their social security check and curses those damn Internet kids for not playing real poker.And when EVERYONE in this god damn thread has told you multiple times you are wrong, and give you a multitude of reasons why, you don't think that maybe, just maybe you're being a fucktard at this point and now are just arguing to argue?And LOL if you really believe that math analysis is real, really proves your intelligence right there.
I will disregard your vapid and uninspired attempts to insult for the moment, and say this. For those posters who have provided an actual line of logic in support of their preferred line, I have responded in kind. Virtually all have ignored my counter-arguments, chosing rather to hurl their own flavor of insults at the mere suggestion that someone not accept their point of view as gospel. The only person who has engaged in a mostly serious debate is irishguy. Although our discussions have ventured far afield at times from the primary issues surrounding the c/r or c/c question, I think we have basically come to a place where our disagreement is one of playing style and aversion to risk. I'm satisfied with that.As for the rest of you.. you either defend your position in some fashion beyond "we know what we're talking about, which is why we're right", or you disengage. To that end, I would welcome you providing some sort of summary of your "evidence". If you don't feel like spelling it out, then, by all means, point out all of these posts which I have failed to respond to where you make some sort of conclusive argument for why c/r is so bad.

#275 Jordan

Jordan

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,032 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:17 PM

View Postakashenk, on 14 August 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

I will disregard your vapid and uninspired attempts to insult for the moment, and say this. For those posters who have provided an actual line of logic in support of their preferred line, I have responded in kind. Virtually all have ignored my counter-arguments, chosing rather to hurl their own flavor of insults at the mere suggestion that someone not accept their point of view as gospel. The only person who has engaged in a mostly serious debate is irishguy. Although our discussions have ventured far afield at times from the primary issues surrounding the c/r or c/c question, I think we have basically come to a place where our disagreement is one of playing style and aversion to risk. I'm satisfied with that.As for the rest of you.. you either defend your position in some fashion beyond "we know what we're talking about, which is why we're right", or you disengage. To that end, I would welcome you providing some sort of summary of your "evidence". If you don't feel like speling it out, then, by all means, point out all of these posts which I have failed to respond to where you make some sort of conclusive argument for why c/r is so bad.
/threadnow stop feeding the troll.ill try a third time.

#276 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:21 PM

View Postirishguy, on 14 August 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Every point you've made about your 'logic' has been refuted over and over and yet you continue to claim it hasn't. Every question has been answered often multiple times but then a million pages pass and you claim they haven't been.You've continued to conflict yourself repeatedly: first you say when you c r not another chip goes in the pot-then its not another chip goes in unless you either of you improve-then its well if you hit your flush villain may bet Aj Aq etc and you can check raise-or maybe value bet-this has changed at least four times to try to justify a horrible thought process which seems heavily based on getting to the river when you know what the turn is-which you wouldn't when you c r the flop .When myself and others have said IF you're going to take this line on the flop you should be leading this turn-your response is I thought about that but I like the turn card and think I can see if I get there for free and to i'm worried that the 6 may have completed the draw-i can not even wrap my head around this logic.You have said when we c c c you don't believe villain betting again "tells us anything or narrows their range" this is where I've stated and it's been agreed upon that villain could be betting 100% of his range on the flop and you state this-I assumed it to mean villain would bet 100% of their range on the turn. But then you changed it to villain may be value betting a hand like Aj on the turn-and if we would've c r we'd get to see our draw for free cus he wouldn't bet Aj again this is so flawed to try to justify a flop play cus you know what the turn is-if he's betting Aj here who gives a shit we are behind and not getting a good price fold and move on...Like I said I'm not sure English is your first language so maybe your not doing this intentionally
Welcome back, irishguy...You said:"You've continued to conflict yourself repeatedly: first you say when you c r not another chip goes in the pot-then its not another chip goes in unless you either of you improve-then its well if you hit your flush villain may bet Aj Aq etc and you can check raise-or maybe value bet-this has changed at least four times to try to justify a horrible thought process which seems heavily based on getting to the river when you know what the turn is-which you wouldn't when you c r the flop ."I rally have no idea what you're talking about here., as its not very coherant. I will say this, and I don't believe I am contradcting anything I have said previously (If I have feel free to point it out rather than making random assertions as to what I said... the evidence is right there in front of us). After the c/r I have no intention to put another chip into the pot unless we get to the river and improve.. and problably I need to improve significantly (flush/straight, boat, etc.) If we catch a monster on the river, of course I would be open to putting more into the pot. I think this should be clear.You said:"When myself and others have said IF you're going to take this line on the flop you should be leading this turn-your response is I thought about that but I like the turn card and think I can see if I get there for free and to i'm worried that the 6 may have completed the draw-i can not even wrap my head around this logic."Whether or not one SHOULD lead the turn has never been much of a debate. I have mentioned it as a fine play (in fact in my original post). I don't know that any of you have made much of a fuss over whether we should lead the turn. I would invite you to show me where this case has been made. That being said, the check on the turn is still ok for all the reasons I have mentioned (to repeat, it gives us a big draw and if we can get to the river cheaply, that would likely be preferred). I do not believe our opponent will bet in the majority of hands if we check the turn, so the lead/check decision is pretty much one based on risk aversion. Do we want to invest more chips on a draw here. I say there's probably no need to do so.You siad:"You have said when we c c c you don't believe villain betting again "tells us anything or narrows their range" this is where I've stated and it's been agreed upon that villain could be betting 100% of his range on the flop and you state this-I assumed it to mean villain would bet 100% of their range on the turn. But then you changed it to villain may be value betting a hand like Aj on the turn-and if we would've c r we'd get to see our draw for free cus he wouldn't bet Aj again this is so flawed to try to justify a flop play cus you know what the turn is-if he's betting Aj here who gives a shit we are behind and not getting a good price fold and move on..."Again, your commentary is pretty muddled.. with you saids, I saids, I take its.. etc, etc. In an attempt to undersand what you are saying here and clarify my position.... yes, the opponent may bet 100% of his range on the flop. After c/c on the flop, let's say he bets X% of his range. After c/r let's say he bets Y% of his range. It is my argument that X > Y and probably by a wide margin. I believe the c/r will prevent the villain from bluffing, semi-bluffing and making value bets with marginal hands (like A8/A10/AJ/AQ) on the turn. This encompasses a lot of his range. And by the way, you don't think its a fairly significant factor that our opponent won't bet a marginal hand that has us beat (like AJ or AQ) or even a hand which is tied (like A10), or a hand that we have beat (like A8) when him doing so in any of these situations will prevent us from seeing the river and maybe catching our outs (or being ahead from the start)? Again, you have all said you are folding to most bets on the turn. I would think preventing our oponent from betting no matter what he has would be paramount. You say, its ok if we c/c and he bets aj.. we just fold. Well great, we have just donated 6K and got nothing out of it (I will repeat again, we have virtually no chance of really improving on the turn). I say, let's donate 10K and make sure we get to the river without putting any more chips in or making any crucial mistakes.You said:"Like I said I'm not sure English is your first language so maybe your not doing this intentionally"Irishguy, please, do not lower yourself to the level of the absurd. Unlike some on this board, I do not feel the need to tout my "experience" or knowledge in the arena of the english language or anything else. It should be clear from anyone reading my posts that, outside of typos, I am perfectly capable of conveying my point of view with written words. You may not agree with what I have to say, but it is perfectly understandable for anyone with an once of reading comprehension. In fact, I probably go overboard to make sure my point is conveyed.

#277 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:23 PM

View PostJordan, on 14 August 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

/threadnow stop feeding the troll.ill try a third time.
I tell you what.. you're certainly feeding the trolls at Google.

#278 Jordan

Jordan

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,032 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:30 PM

CR to fold the flop is just so laughably bad it's just not even worth trying to explain to someone why it's bad after you been so adament it's a good play.You CR the flop to induce from draws or some stupid hand. Like Looshle said, this happens very rarely. Normally they just fold and you prevent them from continuing to bluff, which is bad.You are rarely losing to a better Ace. This is because your stack size pre-flop is going to receive a 3bet from AJ+ almost always, especially when playing 6max.Now I've gone against my own, "not feeding the troll" schtick, but I mean, really else can or needs be said that hasn't already been said.You think you're line is right/optimal. You're wrong. You don't care. Great. Neither do I. Good day and good riddance. I'm done responding. GL.

#279 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:36 PM

View PostJordan, on 14 August 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

CR to fold the flop is just so laughably bad it's just not even worth trying to explain to someone why it's bad after you been so adament it's a good play.You CR the flop to induce from draws or some stupid hand. Like Looshle said, this happens very rarely. Normally they just fold and you prevent them from continuing to bluff, which is bad.You are rarely losing to a better Ace. This is because your stack size pre-flop is going to receive a 3bet from AJ+ almost always, especially when playing 6max.Now I've gone against my own, "not feeding the troll" schtick, but I mean, really else can or needs be said that hasn't already been said.You think you're line is right/optimal. You're wrong. You don't care. Great. Neither do I. Good day and good riddance. I'm done responding. GL.

View PostJordan, on 14 August 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

/threadnow stop feeding the troll.ill try a third time.

Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#280 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:37 PM

and...

View PostTrueAce13, on 27 July 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

you're a ****ing idiot.

Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users