Jump to content


Tournament Hand


  • Please log in to reply
313 replies to this topic

#21 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 July 2012 - 02:42 PM

Lol there is just no way you can assume that you are way behind on the flop. The flop is completely standard. Honestly the more I think I about it the turn may not be a clear and cut shove. I mean we never have the best hand on the turn. His range is only going to be two pair, sets, and aj and aq. Idk, I know its such a pretty turn, but we may not be getting the right price. Could be completely wrong tho.edit: and trueace is spot on. c/r the flop does the exact opposite of controlling the pot. you're bloating the pot out of position, completely unnecessary.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#22 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:17 PM

Lucero, of course there is a chance he is bluffing, semi or otherwise since the laws of physics and probability state that he is allowed to do so. You have to ask yourself what is the likelihood of him bluffing here. You said these players were pretty solid, straightforward players. These sorts of players typically do not put in most of their stacks on a bluff turn at this stage in the tournament. Not knowing the player you spoke about and going simply on the hand description, I would say there is less than a 10% chance he is bluffing in that spot. Its just a horrible spot to bluff unless he thinks you have a hand like QQ or KK. There's little reason to believe you have a hand like that as opposed to a big A, so again, its a really bad spot for him to be bluffing.TrueAce... I like to think I am a farly logical thinker and have a good grasp of the English language, but I really don't understand much of what you are saying. You use a lot of words, but they don't seem to have much bearing on what I actually said or on what is going on in this hand. I believe I have made a good argument for why a check-raise is a better move on the flop than check-call. If anyone would like to argue against that is some logical, intelligible manner, I would welcome their thoughts. For the record, I am trying to get better at poker (what poker player isn't?), and I happen to think that a "let's close our eyes and hope for the best" outlook in a tournament situation as was presented in this thread is not the way to go.

#23 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:22 PM

lol you can't be real. can you?
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#24 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:24 PM

donk...I never mentioned pot control on the flop.. I mentioned it on the turn by advocating a check there. However, I would argue that c/r the flop will slow down our villain if he too has a marginal hand that happens to have us beat. I think the c/r makes it more likely you get a check-check on the turn so in an indirect way, I think it does help control the size of the overall pot from the flop.I also find your other statement interesting. Why do you all of a sudden think you are way behind on the turn, when that didn't even cross your mind on the flop? I don't want to lump you in with TrueAce, but his whole justification for check-calling the flop is to induce a bluff on the turn. The villain obliged in this case. If having him bluff the pot is what you were looking for, why the sudden cold feet?

#25 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:26 PM

LOL check/raising that flop is let's close our eyes and hope for the best.Two fundamentals of poker that you clearly haven't learned:When you're playing a particular hand, it should be either for value, or as a bluff. Check/raising this flop is doing neither of those things. You're bloating the pot, you're forcing yourself to play a larger pot out of position, and if you get jammed on you're ****ing because you have the best hand about <5% of the time and your equity sucks. Check/calling allows us to pot control, and decide on the turn. This late in the tournament players are pretty straight forward, so this hand is not that hard to play. It's a shitty spot since we have so many draws and top pair/decent kicker, but so what we can get away from it for a cheap price. If you check/raise that flop, you aren't getting away cheaply, you're forcing yourself into a shitty spot.Your thinking is incredibly flawed, I have no clue how you don't see how it isn't.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#26 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:27 PM

trueace... no, I am a figment of your imagination. Someone spiked your drink.

#27 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:27 PM

WHAT DO WE ACCOMPLISH BY C/R'ing?! OUR HAND IS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME AS 72o WHEN WE DO THAT! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ANYTHING?!??!?!! HOW IS IT A WAY OF POT CONTROLLING WHEN WE C/R...B/C YOU JUST SAID IT AGAIN!!!!!JESUS YOU ARE SOOO ****ING STUPID W/ YOUR LOGIC IN THIS HAND AND WILL NEVER GET BETTER AT POKER AND THIS IS WHY POKER IS STILL A GREAT GAME TO MAKE $ IN!!!!!!GOD THIS IS SOOOO TILTINGGGGG
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#28 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:28 PM

LOL because the flop and turn are two completely different streets. We check to him, he's going to fire with a lot of hands there. But when that turn hits his range becomes incredibly limited, especially with his bet sizing. Yeah, we are check/calling the flop because we think he has bluffs in his range. But once that turn hits and he fires a larger bet his range becomes very limited. Just because we c/c the flop doesn't mean it's OMG WE HAVE TO GO WITH THIS HAND TILL THE END. Plans change on each street.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#29 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:34 PM

View Postakashenk, on 26 July 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Lucero, of course there is a chance he is bluffing, semi or otherwise since the laws of physics and probability state that he is allowed to do so. You have to ask yourself what is the likelihood of him bluffing here. You said these players were pretty solid, straightforward players. These sorts of players typically do not put in most of their stacks on a bluff turn at this stage in the tournament. Not knowing the player you spoke about and going simply on the hand description, I would say there is less than a 10% chance he is bluffing in that spot. Its just a horrible spot to bluff unless he thinks you have a hand like QQ or KK. There's little reason to believe you have a hand like that as opposed to a big A, so again, its a really bad spot for him to be bluffing.TrueAce... I like to think I am a farly logical thinker and have a good grasp of the English language, but I really don't understand much of what you are saying. You use a lot of words, but they don't seem to have much bearing on what I actually said or on what is going on in this hand. I believe I have made a good argument for why a check-raise is a better move on the flop than check-call. If anyone would like to argue against that is some logical, intelligible manner, I would welcome their thoughts. For the record, I am trying to get better at poker (what poker player isn't?), and I happen to think that a "let's close our eyes and hope for the best" outlook in a tournament situation as was presented in this thread is not the way to go.
Alright, how does villain have QQ/KK here? please enlighten me. Second bold...seems fairly logical.
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#30 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:40 PM

donk... If a bluff is defined as representing a stronger hand than you have.. how is c/r this flop not a bluff? And will bluffs not sometimes cause marignal hands to fold, or at least slow down? Isn't that precisely what we want to happen in this hand.... get to the river or get out of the hand as cheaply as possible? Check-calling the flop makes it more likely we make a mistake on the turn, which is exactly what happened.I'm also surprised you would be so upset at being jammed on. Is folding when you are obviously way behind such a travesty?As for "deciding on the turn", here's a question for you... is there a single card in the deck, with the possible exception of one of the 3 10s, which you REALLY want to see on the turn? My answer is no. So, if the turn has very little chance of helping us, how are we in a better position to "decide" on that street, particularly out of position?Like I said in a previous post, I would rather risk an extra 4K in this situation and know I am making a good fold to a flop shove or big turn bet, than save that 4K on the flop and either make a bad decision for my tournament life or wonder if I just got the pot stolen from me.

#31 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:46 PM

View Postdonk4life, on 26 July 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

LOL because the flop and turn are two completely different streets. We check to him, he's going to fire with a lot of hands there. But when that turn hits his range becomes incredibly limited, especially with his bet sizing.Yeah, we are check/calling the flop because we think he has bluffs in his range. But once that turn hits and he fires a larger bet his range becomes very limited. Just because we c/c the flop doesn't mean it's OMG WE HAVE TO GO WITH THIS HAND TILL THE END. Plans change on each street.
so, now it seems you are advocating a fold on the turn (I thought you said you are never folding, but maybe I'm wrong). Anyhow, had the villain had one of those other marginal hands that had us beat (AJ/AQ), or if theyhad a drawing hand, don't you think it highly likely they would check behind on the turn after you just check-raised them on the flop? I happen to think so. And wouldn't it have been nice to see that river and try to catch a diamond for 4K instead of a minimm of 12K, or as it turns out, all of our chips.

#32 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:48 PM

but....by c/r'ing, we aren't seeing it for 4k. just saying
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#33 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:50 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 26 July 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Alright, how does villain have QQ/KK here? please enlighten me.
TrueAce, you have reading comprehension problems. I am not so callous to make fun of you for that, but if you continue to deride me while displaying these reading comprehension problems, I may be forced to. Please put the alcoholic beverage down and re-read my post... slowly. Maybe have someone in the room help you out. To give you a hint.. no one has QQ/KK in this hand.

#34 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 26 July 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

but....by c/r'ing, we aren't seeing it for 4k. just saying
obviously I was referring to the additional 4K a c/r would require on top of the check call. My position is I'm never putting any more chips in the pot on the turn and in many cases, won't have to.

#35 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 26 July 2012 - 06:56 PM

ok...so let me see this logic...We would rather put in 8k into this pot and then make a decision on the turn, instead of just putting in 4k and making a decision on the turn? yupp, great ****ing logic. any other amazing advice you have? please....enlighten me.
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#36 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:00 PM

View Postakashenk, on 26 July 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

so, now it seems you are advocating a fold on the turn (I thought you said you are never folding, but maybe I'm wrong). Anyhow, had the villain had one of those other marginal hands that had us beat (AJ/AQ), or if theyhad a drawing hand, don't you think it highly likely they would check behind on the turn after you just check-raised them on the flop? I happen to think so. And wouldn't it have been nice to see that river and try to catch a diamond for 4K instead of a minimm of 12K, or as it turns out, all of our chips.
LOL you're saying this under the assumption that his range on the flop is limited to these hands, which they clearly aren't. His range may be made up of those hands, along with sets, 2 pair, and of course bluffs. The fact that his range is made up of far more hands besides aj, aq and draws means c/r is the worst option. You are basing your logic on assumptions of what you WANT the player to do on the flop, turn and river, not what they are going to do.And yeah, I said in the beginning we should never be folding. But I didn't examine the size of the pot on the turn relative to stack sizes. Nor had I pokerstoved the ranges prior to answering. I don't see how this relates to c/ring the flop being completely awful.Straight foward players aren't double barreling on that board nor betting that amount on the turn unless they have very good holdings. Plans can change between the flop and turn. If we bet the flop, then I think CRAI on the turn is by far the best option since it maximizes our equity.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#37 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:03 PM

Donk, what do big works like equity mean?
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!

#38 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:10 PM

donk, I think you and i have the same philosphy. The only difference is, you think it is unlikely he will 2-barrel bluff this pot. I tend to agree (though it seems to be what trueace is counting on), but I believe my c/r on the flop pretty much guarantees he won't and it also introduces some fold equity. A check/call just makes our turn decision that much harder since we haven't represented much strength and the villain could be comfortable value betting the turn with lots of hands that have us beat.. and thus preventing us from seeing that all-important river.

#39 akashenk

akashenk

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 152 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on 26 July 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

ok...so let me see this logic...We would rather put in 8k into this pot and then make a decision on the turn, instead of just putting in 4k and making a decision on the turn?yupp, great ****ing logic. any other amazing advice you have? please....enlighten me.
I'd rather put in 8k and make an easy decision that costs me nothing more, than put in 4K that makes my decision a lot harder and could cost my tournament life. Consider yourself enlightened, and at the rate your chugging tonight, that's no small feat.

#40 TrueAce13

TrueAce13

    FCP Resident Donk

  • Members
  • 4,853 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO NLHE

Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:18 PM

you win. I'm officially broken. god, please teach me more man. Can't wait to hear it
Pokerstars: TrueAce13 (Willard)
FT: TrueAce13
My First Poker Blog, please read and help me get better!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users