313 replies to this topic

[Lucero123]

Hi guys,New to tournament poker, and need your views on a hand that i felt I really misplayed. Have no idea how to copy paste from HH so here it goes.No stats avaliable cause I dont have PT or HM on this computer yet, all five players are pretty tight and straightforward and I have been picking up pots fairly easy last 30 min or so.Blinds: 600 - 1200Hero/donk/me: 30KButton: Just has me covered6-max table,We are in the money. Im on cutoff and its folded to me. AdTdHero: 2600Button: CallSB/BB: FoldsFlop: Ac 9d 7cHero: Check (Dont want to bet/call here, but check feels wrong for some reason)Button: Bet 4K into 7KMe: callTurn: Ac 9d 7c 6dHero: checkButton: bet 12KNow what?

[donk4life]

You have to ask yourself why are you checking the flop. You say it's because you don't want to bet/call, which I think is flawed. You should do it in hopes that you either a.) get the guy to bluff into you, or b.) you think you lose value by checking the flop adn want to get more value on the turn and river. B would be the most logical reason to check the flop, however, you should never be folding at any point in this hand.I don't see what the problem is with bet/caling the flop, or bet/calling the turn. We have TOP TOP and now a combo draw, with less than 25 BEEBS to start the hand I don't see how I'm ever folding this.Sorry he had AQ and you bricked.

[Lucero123]

Well, on the flop I felt like if I bet 4K and he makes it 10-12K, do I just get it in? (How often am I good in that spot?) Bet/Fold?? No way, right??I think I am good on the flop alot but if I get raised, I dont think I am ahead alot here, or am I wrong?thanks for answer btw

[donk4life]

I don't know, I think there's a range of hands that you beat if he raises the flop. He could have a flushdraw, combo draw, or bluffs that see an ace on the flop and think if they raise they'll take it down.I honestly don't mind your check on the flop, but it's completely player dependent. I just feel like you can't fold the turn.

[Lucero123]

No, the turn I have to stick it in, even though his range of hands that fold CR on turn is very small. Only total air..

[TrueAce13]

i don't know if i have drank too much, but i don't mind checking flop. I'm never folding ever in this hand, but feel that our hand is really under-repped

[akashenk]

In a hand like this, at this stage in a tournament, my philosophy is you want to know where you're at as soon as possible in order to avoid bleeding off too many chips in a bad spot. I like the flop check, but i would have gone for the check raise... even a min-raise here. The only thing you have to worry about is him shoving against your check raise. If he does so, I think a HUGE percentage of the time you are either way behind or are facing some sort of monster draw and likely coin flip situation. How crazy would your opponent have to be to 4 bet shove this flop with a hand like A-8 or KK? Anyhow, your opponent would in all likelihood call your check raise, but now I think you're in much better shape on the turn. You could bet the turn, say about 10K, representing a very strong hand. Doing so puts your opponent in a really tough spot. They would have shoved the flop if they were really strong. How can they call your 10K? You might even get them to lay down AQ/AJ/A10 in this situation, which would obviously be very good for you. The one concern you have with a lead out here is that the 6 hit one of their outs if they had a draw and decided to play it slow on the flop. Because of that, I would rather see a check on the turn. This will help you control the pot size a little if you are behind and allow you to see the river cheaper. Your check on the turn in the real hand invited your opponent to bet the turn with a wide variety of hands that may or may not have had you beat. This made it a tough decision for you. By check-raising the flop, your turn check now puts your opponent in the hot seat. Again, is he going to bet here with anything less than a monster? I don’t think so and you’re much more likely to get a check behind than you otherwise were. In this way, you would have seen the river for about 8K less than you did. Now, if he does respond to your turn check with a bet, you are put in a bad spot, but no worse than the one you actually found yourself in. You need to decide whether calling as a likely 5, 6 or 7 to 1 underdog makes sense in this spot.

[donk4life]

c/r is about the worst thing you can do on that flop. if you c/r that flop you're doing it because you have some sort of dynamic with that player and you think he'll spew it off or some shit. when you c/r you're inviting to only call you with a limited number of hands on that flop. the only thing you beat that he will call with is a weaker ace, which probably isn't likely in this spot. c/r takes away all his bluffs.

[akashenk]

donk. ..my belief is you want to invite bluffs when you are very strong, not when you are very marginal. When you are marginal, you want to prevent bluffs.By check-calling the flop, you have zero idea where you stand, and you have very little control of the hand. By check-raising, you have a better idea of where you stand and introduce some level of control over the hand, not to mention you give yourself some chance to win with a worse hand.

[answer20]

I dont mind the Flop check, but would rather lead out here with 2600 to 3000. You have a decent kicker and did open Pre-Flop so a c-bet is really a better way to go against tight players as the 'straight forward' play will help you decide what to do on the Turn. I agree with most that a c/raise is not the way to go on the Flop, but could have been the way to go on the Turn with a smaller pot ... you actually could be behind some of his semi-bluffing range!! If you don't get any help on the Turn you are stuck in a bloated pot now OOP. Too late the way the hand played out as the chips are going in ... you picked up outs to the nuts and could possibly be ahead. I don't think you just call as you dont get paid on a helping River, except off suit 8 and that could make a strt for him as well or chop, and now you would only have 10bb behind if you blank out.I think the 'pot' sized bet on the Turn indicates a hand that beats you in most cases but is scared of the draws out there (from a straight forward player) ... but isn't so scared to commit his stack to the pot either since he feels he is ahead in the math department. You could fold with 20bb behind ... you were in the money. What would hanging around have done for you? I don't know much about ICM, but this is a classic place to apply it for sure!!Even with the nut draw you are barely getting the right price to call and lose money with a shove against a better Ace and are way out of line to 2-pr or better holdings. This is a player dependent decision as the math isn't there ... I think you are behind more than ahead. 20bb is ok to work with, but no one would blame you if you shoved either.

[akashenk]

donk disagreed with the flop c/r because he didn't want to lose out to a potential bluff down the road. You said " agree with most that a c/raise is not the way to go on the Flop". Why?

[donk4life]

How many worse hands make up his range that are calling pre this late in a tournament? You can basically rule everythinge except maybe a8 and maybeeee a6. So what does a c/r accomplish? To get value out of two hands that we beat when his range is more than likely made up of a lot more hands? I agree that betting the flop is probably best in this spot, but a check has its merits. So c/r then you get jammed on, what are you going to do? fold? you're really going to c/r top pair and fold?I mean, I don't think we're ahead too often on the turn, but all of our draw outs are live then i don't think we can fold. probably something that should be stoved.

[answer20]

Mis-read his comment a bit but my line on the check-raise is that a c/raise commits us to shoving and I dont think we are ahead of many hands in that spot that call or shove over the top. But we could get away from our hand, even top pair, on the Turn if we aren't committed to shoving against this opponent's bet size on that street. We would be left with an 'acceptable' stack of 20bb ... might not feel good about it, but I could fold on the Turn to some opponents.If we do c/raise we dont get any additional value from hands we are ahead of (it screams I HAVE AN ACE) but can also get some of those hands we are behind to fold as well. Again, opponent dependent. It would not be a c/raise it would be a c/shove, which gives our opponent some fold equity on his 20bb stack.

[akashenk]

donk.. the idea isn't so much to get a worse hand to call us and give us value. That's obviously not likely to happen The idea is to lose as few chips as possible in a very marginal situation and give us the best chance of winning the hang from behind which in all likelihood is where we find ourselves on the flop. What the c/r accomplishes is not on the flop, but rather the turn. LIke I said in my remarks, when we c/r the flop, it is highly unlikely that our opponent is going to just call with any sort of big hand (2p, set, even AK). If they 4 bet the flop, we simply fold knowing we are way behind. If they, on the other hand, call the c/r on the flop, then we know that the opponent has a hand, but not necessarily one they are ready to commit all their chips with. This wil prevent them getting us off our hand on the turn with a bluff. And it will even prevent them from value betting an A with a better kicker. We get two chances to suck out for fewer chips.answer20.. I don't like a c/r all-in because you could be completely dominated. The point of the raise is not to get value nor is it primarily to get the opponent to fold there (although in some cases they will fold a slightly better hand or a draw, which is a very good result). The point is to put the opponent on notice that we like our hand and its going to be diffuclt to bluff us out of the pot. I think this line makes playing the turn MUCH easier. The way the hand actualy played out we were making a turn call for lots of chips completely blind to where we stood. Maybe if we catch a lucky river diamond, this is all moot, but I think we're discussing theory here.. not necessarily the results of one particular hand.I would be interested in knowing what the poster actually did in response to the villain's turn bet, and then what happened on the river. My guess is the poster had a really tough decision no matter what happened, unless a diamond hit.

[TrueAce13]

oh man, some good stuff here again!edit: and I like checking to c/c flop and then do some more stuff on the turn. Again, our hand is hella underrepped and we can get a decent amount of value from bluffs/worse hands on the turnedit 2: ya, lets turn our top pair good kicker into a bluff on the flop. That seems like a splendid idea.

[akashenk]

TrueAce.. what do you mean our hand is way underrepped? And since when is a 10 a "good" kicker, particularly when there are two under cards on the board which could already have outflopped us for two pair?BTW, it seems like you and donk play against lots of folks who tend to bluff in really bad spots. In the few hands I have read your analysis of, you always seem to lean towards trying to get value from some sort of ill-timed bluff from our opponent. Where can I find these games?

[Lucero123]

Thanks everyone for all the answers.I have read the posts and thought about the hand since I first posted. Feel like check/call flop is allright, and I think I answer20 has a good point when he says that he might even fold the turn. The opponents were really straight forward and I was as I first wrote picking up "free money" alot of the time by just raising pre and betting small on the flop. 20 BBs is an OK stack to work with.I was really confused on the turn and I really didnt know what to do, But I will tell you my thought process and what I opted to do.I thought the chance of him betting a worse hand than AT here for value is very smallThere are some bluffs/semi-bluffs in his rangeIf he has AQ, AK, A9 etc I am like 35-38%If I would to replay the hand I think (not totally sure) I actually would have folded the turn.Anyway, I shipped the turn.. and he showed 99.

[akashenk]

i'm going to assume you didn't catch a diamond on the river... Sorry to here that, but nice run nonetheless..Spur of the moment decisions are hard.. that's why poker is challenging. If players had 15 or 20 minutes to analyze each hand, we'd rarely make the mistakes we all make. Looking back at your analysis, I would point out a couple things which you should consider for the next time you are in a similar situation.You say you thought he could have some bluffs/semi-bluffs in his range which was one of the reasons you shoved the turn. Ignoring the semi-bluff scenario for the moment, since he is unlikely to fold that to your shove, in retrospect what are the chances he is bluffing here? You said all the players were playing straightforward. Betting half one's stack on a turn bluff is not a straightforward play.Secondly, if he had one of the hands you mentioned, you were at best ~24%, and that's if he didn't have any diamonds. As it turns out you were ~16%, or a 5 to 1 dog. Would knowing you were at best a 3 to 1 dog have changed your decision? If so, you might want to think about how you came up with the 35-38% guess as to your chances of winning the hand.Lastly, i hate to harp on this, but take a look what would have happened if you had check min-raised the flop. He would surely have shoved and you would (hopefully) have folded. Now, in this case you actually would have lost a few more chips (~4K). However, you would likely have never faced a tough decision where a mistake could cost you your tournament. What's better? Having 19K in chips, playing the turn carefully and being left to wonder whether you folded the best hand at this late juncture, or having 15K in chips and knowing you made the right decision? I know every chip matters, but to me, there ain't a whole lot of differnce in strategy when you're playing behind ~12 BB and playing behind 16BB. Peace of mind plus fold equity, to me is worth more than those few chips.Congratulations on your nice result!

[TrueAce13]

akashenk, on 26 July 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

TrueAce.. what do you mean our hand is way underrepped? And since when is a 10 a "good" kicker, particularly when there are two under cards on the board which could already have outflopped us for two pair?BTW, it seems like you and donk play against lots of folks who tend to bluff in really bad spots. In the few hands I have read your analysis of, you always seem to lean towards trying to get value from some sort of ill-timed bluff from our opponent. Where can I find these games?

If flop checks through, our hand looks under-repped due to the fact that we can have a large opening range in the CO. So many people may perceive our range as missed overs, and mid pairs, or maybe 2nd pair. These hands are usually going to be looking for show down value. With checking, villain may look at us as weak, and act accordingly. Thats why I don't mind checking flop. When we check, villain can bet to try to pick off overs or w/e that have missed (which we get value from) and if it checks through, we can get value on the turn.What you are representing w/ c/r'ing the flop is essentially turning our hand, that has a good amount of value, into a bluff. Why exactly are we c/r'ing flop? Are we happy to get it in? If we aren't isn't our hand essentially 72o or any 2 random cards?You were saying something of the idea of pot control, but a c/r is doing the exact opposite, we are bloating the pot, in a marginal situation, to "find out where we are at". Can't we do that just by check/calling a street and seeing the action on the turn? Why not keep the pot even smaller, and maybe even allow us to get to showdown.I see that you are trying to get better at poker, but some of the thought process that you go through is very flawed. You can't value your tournament life too much because many people can exploit that and take advantage of that. We want to be able to build our chip stack to put us in a position to make the deepest run possible. Being scared of the possibility of getting sucked out on is just the nature of the game.When you make a decision, ask yourself why you are doing that action. I feel that you will have many more questions, and may listen a bit more to the view points of me and Donk

[Lucero123]

Chance of him showing up w semibluff hands cant be zero, can it? And he has to have some bluffs, right?At best 35% I should say...