19 replies to this topic

[nikobell4711]

Hi,here is another hand from me. After playing for about an hour, a new guy takes the 2^nd seat to my right. I never played him before and after 6 hands this happened:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($25)Button ($31.73)SB ($11)BB ($10)UTG ($25)Hero (UTG+1) ($26.27)MP1 ($33.94)MP2 ($10.25)MP3 ($19.75)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K, A1 fold, Hero bets $0.75, 6 folds, BB calls $0.50Flop: ($1.60) Q, 7, K (2 players)BB bets $0.67, Hero calls $0.67Turn: ($2.94) 6 (2 players)BB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50River: ($5.94) 5 (2 players)BB bets $7.08 (All-In), Hero ???I did not raise him on the flop and on the turn, because I didn't want to scare him off with a pair or the straight draw. I thought I could get some more value on the later streets. In my opinion he must had hit something on the flop. But since he made only standard bets, I didn’t give him credit for a real big hand.What surprised me was the shove on the river. I was ready to reraise another bet or to a bet after a check. But now I was not quit sure about what to do. He could be bluffing a busted draw or wanting payoff off with a set. With a King or a Queen I would expect another value bet for about half the pot. For me the backdoor straight was quit unlikely. So were the pocket fives.I really thought about folding. Since I was in for about 12BB facing this huge bet for 28BB. Should I risk a third of my stack with TPTK here?What would you do? Would you play the hand any different? Did I miss something? I welcome any comments and analyses.Thanks

[donk4life]

i probably raise him on the turn to get value from weaker kings, draws, etc.but in all honesty, he bought in for 40bb. you should never be folding here.

[answer20]

When someone calls a raise and then leads out on the Flop (ala Donk Betting) I would generally raise here to 'see where I'm at' and then proceed based on what happens. He could have pot-controlled an AQ and maybe picked up a flush draw on the Turn or something ... even AJ or A10. Perhaps he has KQ, but I think this is such an overbet that you could easily call it. With no history with this guy it may be tougher ... ppl come into a table looking for a quick 'chip-up' and move on to do the same at another table.You really needed to do something on Flop or Turn here, it may not be worth it to call but no one will hold it against you if you did ... don't be surprised if he leaves the table regardless of the outcome.TPTK is a good hand, but most everyone who sticks around after a raise is drawing to something better ... Make them pay to draw. Small wins are better than larger losses or letting someone run you over when you have the best of it. You decided to slow play this one and got caught up with a maniac play on a seemingly dry board ... you have to mix up your play some of the time, but with someone new to the table and to you personally I would have played some hard ball and let them know who YOU are right out of the gate. You will run into this play plenty the more you continue to play.

[donk4life]

FFS quit telling people to raise to see where they're at.

[mtdesmoines]

donk4life, on 15 July 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

FFS quit telling people to raise to see where they're at.

I always wonder ... what if the villain in the hand LIES about where we're at?

[answer20]

I don't care what you call it ... and 'that' being the phrase that ppl most relate to ... will continue to get (mis)used until 'the cows come home'. You are actually raising to see where the opponent stands, not yourself, but ... let's stop saying 'donk bet' then if someone just wants to take control of the betting lead also or is looking for 'pot control' or 'block betting' or 'is betting for value' or 'doesn't want to give a free card' or 'is mixing up their play' or ...It was really weird over the weekend, I went down to the river and people were actually putting bait on their hooks while fishing!!

[irishguy]

No we should be raising for value or to bluff.."finding out where our opponent stands" can be a product of us raising but shouldn't be our primary motivation. It took me much longer than it should have to understand this but is pretty key.

[donk4life]

lol yeah. if we are raising the flop, we are doing it for two reasons1.) We believe we have the best hand and want to get the most value out of our hand2.) We are trying to bluff our opponent in order to get them to fold. Which obviously in this hand, is not an optionNow there is gray area sometimes, but at this level, these two are the only two thing we should be focusing on.If the first instance, if you are raising, you are doing it with the intention of raise/calling. Because if you are raise/folding here, you're a ****ing idiot because you're essentially turning top pair, top kicker into a bluff. In this particular hand, we should be trying to find the way to get the most value out of our hand, not trying to see where our opponent is at. Great, so you raise and he folds, really got a lot of value out of your hand there. However, if you know this opponent will call a lot of raises after donking, then yes raising for value is 100% correct here.

[TrueAce13]

Really don't think we get too much value in raising this flop. However, we definitely will find out where we're at!

[SuperJon]

I never raise. Just call, call, call. Eventually I get to see where I'm at.

[KingJames]

I raise flop for value. Jam turn.Either raise flop big to value own KT KJ and draws. or raise normal-ish amount and over jam turn to get value vs same range. 25nl... I can post lots of hands where villains go broke with QJ etc here for 40bb... so let's get it in, imoehhhhh... FR... oh. FML. Maybe call, call, call?

[TrueAce13]

really think this donk is always air and feel that raising is getting him to fold. I really like calling flop. Raising turn. call/call/call tho is a decent line i think as well. dunno. I suck at cash, tho we have less than 100bbs, so i have more of an idea!

[Stupidhead]

Kinda sad he jammed but I think calling down is the best line on this board. Not much point to raising since most value hands he has are barreling anyway. There's no real draws he can bet/call with, and he can just blindly punt his stack with whatever air he decided to lead.

[answer20]

Great comments ... I'm hard-headed enough to think my slang matches your intent. Value is what we are looking for by raising the Flop I agree, but perhaps since I play mostly live cash that I am always putting more into the mental side of the hand. Any bet or raise will induce a reaction of some sort by an opponent that checking or flat calling will not ... we have no history with this guy, he is only 40bb deep, lets SEE what he is made of by inducing a reaction, fold, call or shove ... we don't really care here since the reverse is true with the 40bb thought. What are we really missing out on with him so short if he does fold, not much ... and we have now seen him fold a lead-donk bet as a short stack to a simple raise.At these stakes and hand volume I guess you just go with the math and move on, but I would hope that there is more to the game than that.In a 1-2 game this hand equates to calling off $54 into a $41 pot if we are faced with a shove after a small Flop raise from $9 to $20. ($6 pre-Flopx2, $9 lead-out with a $20 raise). If you really think this is an insta-shove ... come on down to my 1-2 game so I can see you reload a few times after you miss your 3 outer or need runner-runner in this spot to boat up. If they just call the raise and you see a Turn ... no harm in stacking off then but you will be crushed with this Flop action 90% of the time in my normal game when a shove happens on the Flop.I truly enjoy your comments and perspective on these hands ... dont get much of this accross the table when the money is still in play.

[donk4life]

I don't even know what to say to that entire post. Everything your saying is still saying you're raising for information. Saying we don't lose out on much if he folds is just so incredibly flawed. So he folds and you potentially lose out on more value. But that's okay because we found out what he's made of!! That pussy folded! That'll show him not to donk when we're at the top of our range!There is absolutely no point in raising this flop. If he has you beat, oh well. The river shove is alarming but you still can't fold. But when you raise, he's only calling you with a limited amount of hands that make up his range. His range is far more weighted towards air then anything else.No one said to shove the flop. Just curious, if you raise the flop and get shoved on are you calling?

[CorvairShaggy]

IDK, but the fact he was on the BB, wouldn't that factor in here? I mean, alot of players at this level will flat the BB with any paint just to see a flop and see if they "hit it". As played, I would have snap-called, and if he happened to have KQ or hit a set of 5s or so, so be it. A little more history on the guy would have been nice, but with him coming in at 40BB, personally I would not give him much respect unless he had shown me otherwise in previuos hands. Just my thoughts.

[SuperJon]

What the problem is? We got top top son.

[TrueAce13]

WE HAVE AN ACE AND A KING! AND WE HIT THE TOPPEST OF PAIRS! There is no left button for me!edit: OH, BLOCKERS AS WELL!

[droberts]

i always raise for information.. but i do it preflop

[Ninja Ace]

you played this hand like dogshitthere should be no river decision, because at 40bb the chips should already be in the middle