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What To Do Here?


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#1 DiamondDixie

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:36 AM

No history with villain, looked him up before this hand and he's only played 2 games on Merge. Prior to this hand I saw him call a 22bb early position shove in LP or the blinds, can't remember which, with 77 and another time I raised in MP and he min 3 bet and folded to my 4 bet shove. Other than that I had no other reads. I'm just not sure about this hand in general. Would checking back the flop been best? Then as played call c/r or fold, then again as played turn call or fold with 29bb behind?We were about 9 from the money at this point.Merge - $0+$0.00|<> NL - Holdem - 8 playersHand converted by PokerTracker 4MP+1: 17,798.00CO: 100,579.00Hero (BTN): 44,547.00SB: 72,977.00BB: 20,111.00UTG: 31,597.00UTG+1: 25,056.00MP: 42,581.00MP+1 posts ante 125.00, CO posts ante 125.00, Hero posts ante 125.00, SB posts ante 125.00, BB posts ante 125.00, UTG posts ante 125.00, UTG+1 posts ante 125.00, MP posts ante 125.00, SB posts SB 600.00, BB posts BB 1,200.00Pre Flop: (pot: 2800.00) Hero has A:heart: 5:club: fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2,400.00, SB calls 1,800.00, foldFlop: (7000.00, 2 players) 5:heart: 4:heart: 3:club: SB checks, Hero bets 2,999.00, SB raises to 6,900.00, Hero calls 3,901.00Turn: (20800.00, 2 players) 8:club: SB bets 63,552.00 and is all-in, Hero ?????

#2 Elvispen

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:20 AM

To me it seems like he has a hand thats good right now but kinda vulnerable, like 66-88 and tries to get his chips in while hes still ahead since he doesnt want a scare card to come on the river which gives him a hard descision since hes first to act.But he probably knows that its close to the money. And maybe he tries to force u out of the pot with a weak hand like A3- A6 or deuces.If we take into consideration that he called a 22BB shove with 77 earlier, we can be quite sure he is not afraid to gamble with a draw hand or even a low pair in this situation since he got u covered in chips and its close to the bubble.But I would probably fold even tough you can be ahead at this point you will get a better spot to take his chips. Sorry if my english isnt perfect :club:

#3 MIddLES

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:20 AM

gross spot and interesting hand, thanks for posting... against an opponent who is getting out of line and seems pretty bad I do think that it is alright to check back a flop like this. It is just so important to have a plan, and it is so difficult with minimal reads against someone who appears to be out of line and unorthodox on boards like this where our goals for the hand are pretty modest. Calling the check raise on the flop puts us in such a terrible spot, I am very interested in what your plan was for different turn cards (different hearts, non ace Broadway cards, etc) if he just bets the turn. This is not a particularly good board to check raise in my opinion and in general I would tend to give some credit here on the flop. If he had been playing a really high percentage of his hands and flatting from the small blind and check raising a lot, I wouldn't be mortified if we made some sort of a goofy kinda small re-raise on the flop to call if he stuffed. I think that the turn is a pretty easy fold on this board.

#4 donk4life

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:22 PM

Meh I think you played it fine. I guess checking back the flop is an option, but it should probably be with the intention of never folding any turn or river. And I even think folding the flop is an option as well. It puts us into such a tough spot on the turn by flatting.You're probably pretty plus +ev in these tournies so there's going to be a lot better spots, I'd just pass on the turn.. And god no, please don't reraise his c/r with the intention of calling it off. Even against the spewwiest of retards that just seems terrible.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#5 DiamondDixie

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:04 PM

Thanks, Reason for the posting, a guy who's be coaching me some and is very good with a sick win rate on Merge was railing me in this game. He said flatting the c/r on this flop was fine and that since this guy is showing up with lots I beat here I should call turn. I usually don't strongly disagree with him but in this case I very strongly disagree. I have no issue calling the flop c/r since these days online you get check raised so much with anything from pure air to 2nd and 3rd pair very often. When flatted these guys will usually check the turn and give up or make one more small stab at it. From the limited history with this guy that's what I expected to happen. When he shoves the turn I felt he could possibly have Q5, J5, K5 or even 2nd pair good kicker a small percentage of the time but since he defended his SB he can also have a lot of hands that have me crushed such as 67, 54, A2, 53, 33, 44 mb even 55 though unlikely, as well as 66, 77 or 88, I think he 3 bets 99+. So my plan on the turn was call a reasonable bet or check back if he checks depending on the turn card. The 8 is a brick and changed nothing but also not being a heart killed any chance of me hitting a flush. When he shoves the turn with me having 29bb behind this deep in the tournament I feel folding is the only reasonable option. If I'd had less than 20bb behind I might could see risking a call more but 29bb was plenty to work with. I really don't see any justification for calling here and I'm interested to see if any of you do.

#6 donk4life

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:33 PM

I mean, I think it's hard for him to show up with nothing on the turn. The reason being, we have the Ah blocker, so he can't be doing this with some combo draw that includes the ace of hearts. If he had something like 76hh that got there, can't have 74hh, 65hh, and any other combo draw you want to include in there now probably has you beat since it would include the 8h (except 63hh, 73hh, etc). But are they really flatting that out of the sb? So basically, you're hoping he's piling this turn with a flush draw or complete air. The thing is, while there's tons of spew tards out there who just click buttons, for the most part you don't have people going crazy with non-nut draws.I guess the timing of his shove might be something of merit. If it was a snap then maybe it's call. But meh, I think the turn has to be a fold.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#7 Jam-Fly

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:39 AM

Tbh, I like shoving flop. He has a really wide range to check raise with and you have a pretty good hand. There's 21k in the pot, and you're shoving for another 35k. It's a biggish shove but I like it. There's a lot of draws and bluffs in his range aswell as sets and overpairs. Once you bet the flop, I'm getting it in. If you check behind for pot control, I don't mind calling the turn and river in most cases, but once you bet and get check raised, flatting is too risky imo. Too many bad turns etc so I rather just get it in on the flop. If you check back flop, I would generally use the hand as a bluff catcher and call most turn and river bets (board and bet size obv matter). As played, I think I have to call it off on that turn.
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#8 Jam-Fly

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:47 AM

View Postdonk4life, on 01 June 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I mean, I think it's hard for him to show up with nothing on the turn. The reason being, we have the Ah blocker, so he can't be doing this with some combo draw that includes the ace of hearts. If he had something like 76hh that got there, can't have 74hh, 65hh, and any other combo draw you want to include in there now probably has you beat since it would include the 8h (except 63hh, 73hh, etc). But are they really flatting that out of the sb? So basically, you're hoping he's piling this turn with a flush draw or complete air. The thing is, while there's tons of spew tards out there who just click buttons, for the most part you don't have people going crazy with non-nut draws.I guess the timing of his shove might be something of merit. If it was a snap then maybe it's call. But meh, I think the turn has to be a fold.
hmmm...true, I forgot to factor in the fact we have the Ahthat said, I do think it's possible for him to have nothing on the turn. Close to the bubble, he could just be putting maximum pressure on us.
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#9 donk4life

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 01:22 PM

I think the fact that we are so close to money makes this an even easier fold. This probably isn't a guy who is trying to take advantage of the bubble and apply extreme pressure. Even if he is he picked a really weird spot to do it. The really small raise on the flop then overbet jam is a weird line, but more often than not this is going to be sets and straights more than complete air, especially on the bubble.edit: and jamming the flop is meh as well. He's never calling with anything that we beat, he's folding out all his air, and even if he has something like qjhh or even 63hh we either aren't a huge favorite or we're a dog. Like Dixie said, a lot of guys will c/r these flops then just give up on the turn, so really the only option is the flat.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#10 DiamondDixie

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:52 PM

I did call the turn but like I said I doubt I'm good here enough for the call to ever show a profit, he had A2 for the straight.

#11 answer20

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:48 AM

Surprised that anyone would say you need to call it off with 30BB near the bubble. Before I read your last post I had him on A2 or a set so it is nice to see (not for you of course) that one of those came around here. Being so close to the money bubble, and attempting to hide the potential strength of my hand, I don't mind if you check behind on the Flop to see if you can pick up an even stronger (drawing) hand with a heart, 2 or 5. He should be expecting you to have a pair, paint, Ax or Kx perhaps in this spot.Do you 3-bet or shove the Flop ... not very often, since you really only have a pair of 5s and a big backdoor draw.When you get check-raised you definitely need to give him some credit ... over-pair, heart draw (combo?), Ax with pair, A6, set, straight ... most of which you are behind to right now or flipping with at this point. His overbet on the Turn is a polarizing event as he could have picked up a club draw to go with his 'other' strength or he just wants to make sure he is getting it in while he thinks he is ahead against now 2 flush draws and maybe higher straight draws. He knows he has a hand and is near the bubble, but is ready to risk it all against any draw. I don't see how you can call this, especially with you being on the button and have 30BB to work with going forward.He is probably a player you want to play against who over-values his holdings, you just aren't in a good spot to take advantage of it in this hand. I don't see too many bluffs in his arsenal and your hand is not strong enough to warranty missing the money here. Your 'advisor' may play many more tournaments than you do where in the end this will even out or be ahead, but like you said ... you are not ready to feel good with the call, so don't. It's better to stay in the tournament than to call off to 3 chop outs.

#12 Jam-Fly

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:07 AM

I actually think checking the flop is optimal. If you bet the flop, folding to a check raise is too bad I think
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