50 replies to this topic

[no not baxter]

charder30, on Monday, April 30th, 2012, 7:57 PM, said:

flop is whatever, could either way but I think just calling preflop is a mistake. I would 3 bet calll, shove, call in that order.

CHARDER30 OG FCPER!!!disagree that flop is whatever, just typed up something long but accidentally deleted it :/But basically, I think that raise calling flop has a lot of merit because he is raising so ridiculously wide preflop, it is very rare that we are going to get it in crushed when we check raise call. Raising lets us take the pot down a lot right away and let's us win stacks versus his Kx hands we beat when turn/river is a diamond, and lets us win stacks versus his diamond draws that brick. Calling lets ike play turns and rivers absurdly well verus our hand on this boardcalling, 3b/f, 3b/c, jam all +ev preflop of course, but id imagine 3b/c >>>>>>>>>>>>>jam >>>>>>>>>>>>>rest

[fivechips]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, April 30th, 2012, 7:29 PM, said:

All the hands you mention Ike having that crush me represent less than 5% of his range in that spot when he bets. He needs a FLUSH or a King WITH a diamond. That is VERY unlikely. I do "ok" against every other hand he has since when I'm beat I'll have 11 outs likely which doesn't suck, and when he is drawing, we'll be flipping.

Are you putting these hands that dominate you at 5% because he bets on the flop to your check? If so how do you arrive at that %? The way I would look at it - of course he can have a pretty wide range with a cut-off bet pre-flop. But I would think he would bet any K diamond kicker here after the flop and check any hand that at least does not contain a king or a high to medium diamond. It's a terrible spot (in my opinion) to continuation bet without at least a king or a diamond. It opens up a check raise and could put him in a tough spot if he's weak. So my post-flop read on a check/bet would be strong hand (at least a King) or semi-bluffish (high/medium diamond) continuation bet. Of course I don't even know who we are talking about so your read and experience on his play is probably more effective here.Anyway - thanks for the response. It is great that we are able to have you here to answer questions.

[leer]

ok, i see you had pocket 8's one being a diamond. thus you had a flush draw. on the flop. being that 3 diamonds flopped.im assuming he had Pocket kings. flopping a set.now, im thinking, you hit a 4th diamond on the river giving you a flush. and the board did not pair.now as to why you called. i can only assume you put him on a pocket pair. not thinking he had kings. possibly AA or QQ. you saw him representing a flush. but something tells me that story did not add up. so you thought a call to his all in was good.

[gdp13]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, April 30th, 2012, 1:00 AM, said:

Key hand I played today in the 25k high roller. I'll give you the details, you can discuss, then I'll chime in with my thought process: Isaac raised to 2900 from the cutoff and I called from the BB with red 88 (Blinds 600-1200 w 200 ante). The flop comes K 4 2 all diamonds. I check, he bet 5500, I make it 12,000, he goes all in for 22,000 more. I call. I'll add what happened next sometime tomorrow. Anyway, what do you think of the way I played the hand?

I actually like the call and think it's the best option considering the size of the stacks. If you 3-bet him to 10K are you ever folding to a shove considering his range? I mean KQ QJ even J10 suited are all decent enough hands to ship to a 3 bet here considering the likely ranges that 3-bet from the big. He's almost always folding small pairs unless he gets decides to spew (he's too good to do that), slim chance he ships with 77 or 66 but most of the time if he ships in that spot you're a flip or crushed, slightly ahead at best. You could do a smaller 3-bet to about 6.5-7.5K but he can still ship and if he calls in position what flops are you going to like? 3-betting is usually the best option but the stacks are only 30 odd bb deep and with antes the bet to get him off it has to be a bigger % of your stack than you want to commit with 88 pre-flop. By calling you keep the pot small, disguise the strength of your hand and keep him guessing. It also means you have more options on how to play there board post flop as you haven't defined your hand and the pot is small enough that you can call bets with implied odds (everybody knows how much Daniel likes his suited connectors).The re-raise on the flop is great for mixing it up and stops a few hands he continues with getting cheap turn cards, such as AQ,KJ,QJ,J10,109, or even 77,66,55,44. You also take away any equity he could have from bluffing at a face card hitting the turn that could but doesn't hit him such as Q (if he's playing KJ, J10 or even 77 to 44). Think he's almost always shipping BlankJd^ and probably even Blank10d which becomes a flip. 2 face cards on the flop is probably just a fold, but the re-raise is almost certainly better than just calling, as it's likely you have 11 outs considering the % of his range and if you call on the flop and he bets the turn what do you do? You could still have the best hand but a ship is easy to pick off is he does have a K or bigger pocket pair as with 3 diamonds you'd always raise 2 pair or a set on the flop. So I actually think calling the flop is probably the worst option as you have no fold equity on the turn and if a diamond does hit, you don't get paid if he doesn't have one and you probably get stacked if he does. You can't just fold the flop either with just the K, although shoving/re-raising are pretty similar, although a re-raise is a little more believable that you are strong. After his shove pot odds dictate a call against his range, so I don't get anybody who says that's bad as it's just standard really. Different lines work against different players and there are several ways to play this hand which would all be ok. However, re-raising pre-flop is a little pointless considering stack sizes if you feel your edge is post-flop which is undoubtedly the case for Daniel (you'd hate getting stacks in pre with 88 here, but are likely to be put to the test too often by a tough player like Haxton - although I don't know if he plays strong pre or post-flop). I don't mind shoving, but you give up any value you can have from what is a stronger hand a large % or the time, as he continues and then give up on a lot of boards with AX or KX and you inevitably get snap called by racing and dominating hands. Obviously folding is pre just always out of the question unless you feel your completely outclassed, but even then I think a shove is better.

[Bisull]

Saw this on twitter and just had to register, interesting hand for sureR/C nets more chips in the long run in tournaments although you obv get knocked out more, R/C will also result in more deep runs... def in a tough field R/C is gonna be the best preflop option, straight up shipping is a little big imo and should give a very good player and indication as to what you have 55-88, QJs+, KQo and similar, never AQ/AK or 99+DN and IH have history that's tough to comment on but I think in more spots than not DN is calling more OOP than 3betting when IH opens from a semi shallow stack. Think a lot of player's itt have a little online-esque thoughts on preflop play, calling here pre does have a lot of merit too since IH's range is huge and he has a stack where most players cbet/give up when called on flop (generally speaking of course, not knowing anything about IH's postflop play).I think DN's flop line is interesting and it's something we rarely see, especially with his exact hand. I don't think most players barrel off 30bb's on a dry monotone board w air but IH is not most players. DN's explanation is interesting too as he'll protect vs equity hands that cannot continue vs C/R, that's about it. Not sure if he folds any king that he bets on this flop, looks like he wouldn't bet/f a value hand with his stack, seems really bad, especially on this board. Therefore I think we can exclude all Kx hands without a diamond that he might bet/f. C/C flop is gonna get is tough spots on later streets if IH can barrel air (which I think he can but doesn't look like he would, just looking at it raw from home)R/C > C > SHIP pre flop imoC/C > C/R/C > C/SHIP > donk + other funky stuff

[Acerospy]

Hi, guys, first ever post in the forum, so hope it will go to the right place.Some really analytical comments on EV and other consideration not really known from outside of how the hand played. Like the call and raise on the flop, as it helps to define the hand, and could possibly take it down there and then. not knowing Haxton and how he plays, i would not call the shove for 22k more. why throw away good tournament chips? Are u realyl pot commited with 13.7k invested in the hand so that you would call 22 more on a hand that looks like a clear looser?unless Haxton would easily risk his tournament life on such a dangerous flop, with complete air?

[billionaire-recreational]

Do poker tournaments ever involve skill or just winning coinflips? Haxton played it perfectly, got it in as a 57-43 favorite, got knocked out.Later DNeg got it in 57-43 over Bonomo, could have easily been knocked out like Haxton but happened to win.It sounds like a bunch of pros exchanging coinflips until someone wins the lottery.

[DiogoLopes]

fivechips, on Tuesday, May 1st, 2012, 12:17 AM, said:

Are you putting these hands that dominate you at 5% because he bets on the flop to your check? If so how do you arrive at that %? The way I would look at it - of course he can have a pretty wide range with a cut-off bet pre-flop. But I would think he would bet any K diamond kicker here after the flop and check any hand that at least does not contain a king or a high to medium diamond. It's a terrible spot (in my opinion) to continuation bet without at least a king or a diamond. It opens up a check raise and could put him in a tough spot if he's weak. So my post-flop read on a check/bet would be strong hand (at least a King) or semi-bluffish (high/medium diamond) continuation bet. Of course I don't even know who we are talking about so your read and experience on his play is probably more effective here.Anyway - thanks for the response. It is great that we are able to have you here to answer questions.

Take all his range. Separate that:a) hands i beatb) hands are ahead of meSo you calculate the combinations of every hand. For example: AKo = We know there is a King on the flop, so there are 4 Aces and 3 Kings out. 4*3=12 combinations.After calculate the combinations of all range you discover how much in % hands that beat us represent of the Ike's entire range. Note: When i say 12 combinations of AK you have to understand that we can play for 11 outs against AK no diamonds and 2 outs against AK w/ diamond. That's why this is so tough spot. Really really difficult to calculate or real equity against Ike entire range and the % of hands that we beat without a pencil and paper Very nice play Daniel.

[fivechips]

DiogoLopes, on Tuesday, May 1st, 2012, 4:36 PM, said:

Take all his range. Separate that:a) hands i beatb) hands are ahead of meSo you calculate the combinations of every hand. For example: AKo = We know there is a King on the flop, so there are 4 Aces and 3 Kings out. 4*3=12 combinations.After calculate the combinations of all range you discover how much in % hands that beat us represent of the Ike's entire range. Note: When i say 12 combinations of AK you have to understand that we can play for 11 outs against AK no diamonds and 2 outs against AK w/ diamond. That's why this is so tough spot. Really really difficult to calculate or real equity against Ike entire range and the % of hands that we beat without a pencil and paper Very nice play Daniel.

What is IKE betting this flop with? Is he really betting in to Daniel with three diamonds and no diamond or no King? Basically risking his tournament life on a continuation bet with no hope of winning to a DN check raise? I don't see how we can't narrow his range on his bet to any king or any diamond draw. In those situations he's committed and will make the bet. Otherwise I think he checks back to Daniel and maybe gives up the hand to a turn bet. And if we do narrow his range significantly we are behind and then a check/fold is probably the better play here. As it stood Daniel was in fact behind as a dog and needed to get lucky.As to the other post involving coin-flips. I would say at the late stages of a tournament the coin flip starts to become a viable strategy.

[Backslider]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, April 30th, 2012, 5:23 PM, said:

My thinking on the flop went something like this: Ike is good. I can never fold here obviously, but check calling puts me in a lot of bad spots, AND allows him to see a free turn and river if he chooses too.

If you're worried about how good Ike is, and getting into bad spots, and giving him free cards.. then why did you just call pre-flop? You're going to get into bad spots where he is going to play well against you, in position, and he gets way more information from the flop than you do, what with his wide pre-flop range.I don't see how your pre-flop play can be good if your post-flop thinking is good. Backslider

[The_String]

would like to confirm that this play will not work in the $5.50 freezeout on pokerstars