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Hand Vs Isaac Haxton


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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:00 PM

Key hand I played today in the 25k high roller. I'll give you the details, you can discuss, then I'll chime in with my thought process: Isaac raised to 2900 from the cutoff and I called from the BB with red 88 (Blinds 600-1200 w 200 ante). The flop comes K 4 2 all diamonds. I check, he bet 5500, I make it 12,000, he goes all in for 22,000 more. I call. I'll add what happened next sometime tomorrow. Anyway, what do you think of the way I played the hand?
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#2 donk4life

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:11 PM

Why are you raising the flop?

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#3 Shokreee

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:22 PM

Stack sizes @ moment of hand?i would play that hand little bit more careful. theres a good possibility that he had higher flush draw, K in his hand (some kind of KT, KQ...) or less likely flopped set. i would call flop and see what happens.

#4 rouliroul

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:26 PM

Flop is probably razor thin/fine, its Ike you're not making money vs him anyways. Not sure why you don't 3bet preflop though.

#5 Darrell

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:33 PM

Not a fan. How are you ever ahead when stacks go in here? Check/call flop and re-evaluate turn seems like the best play.

#6 evan_

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:38 PM

i think , he propably have a wheel draw with the Ad or set without flushdraw . a/w its a little polarized that 3bet shoved :club:

#7 Doomcaller66

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:43 PM

To my eye you look like a dummy for that call but then again you're the pro and you also had immediate and long term history with him to go off of and it was probably actually genius and correct for all I know.

#8 D8BD9N

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:53 PM

I love ya, man.... but it looks like a bad play to me... like others have said... how could you be ahead of anything but a really weak bluff. But then, you're playing in the 25K tournament and I'm playing in 25 dollar on-line sit-n-go's.... so what do I know.

#9 ripathan

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:59 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Monday, April 30th, 2012, 12:00 PM, said:

Key hand I played today in the 25k high roller. I'll give you the details, you can discuss, then I'll chime in with my thought process: Isaac raised to 2900 from the cutoff and I called from the BB with red 88 (Blinds 600-1200 w 200 ante). The flop comes K 4 2 all diamonds. I check, he bet 5500, I make it 12,000, he goes all in for 22,000 more. I call. I'll add what happened next sometime tomorrow. Anyway, what do you think of the way I played the hand?
i think pocket AA with no diamond

#10 apal13

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

From an amateur's perspective it seemed loose. I don't know Isaac but I'm not sure what you put him on. So many hands have you in bad shape:- higher pocket pair- Kx- Two high cards with at least one diamond- low suited diamond connectors- pocket 4's or pocket 2'sThree betting him pre flop wold have helped narrow down his hand.

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Sunday, April 29th, 2012, 4:00 PM, said:

Key hand I played today in the 25k high roller. I'll give you the details, you can discuss, then I'll chime in with my thought process: Isaac raised to 2900 from the cutoff and I called from the BB with red 88 (Blinds 600-1200 w 200 ante). The flop comes K 4 2 all diamonds. I check, he bet 5500, I make it 12,000, he goes all in for 22,000 more. I call. I'll add what happened next sometime tomorrow. Anyway, what do you think of the way I played the hand?


#11 DiogoLopes

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

I would have played differently since i don't find interesting to play post-flop oop vs Isaac Haxton. So I think I'd do the 3-bet and think to call or not whether he moves in ~25bbs. I'd have to know how much chips remaining i'll have if a lost to make that decision. But if i call pre-flop, so i never will raise him on this flop. Just because i can't call his all-in for ~22bb. He could have many flushdraws A-high, some K (K8+), some flushs (QJs, SCdiamonds), some steals that turn into monster hands (42, K2, K4), some PP better than the Eights (9d9, TdT, JdJ of course he can always have 7d7, 6d6) I mean, most of the time he is ahead, most of the time we have the low equity or is a flip 50%-50%, and sometimes we are drawing to a miracle. Ok, part of the time he is in a bad shape like when he hold 7d7. But, again, isn't interesting play 22bb against this wider range.So, i think fold is more Ev than call.If i have some tell of him or was big stack, i can call... in fact, even big-stack i prefer raise all in to pass the difficult decision for him.

#12 BBP87

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:07 PM

I think your ahead, Isaac has A-5 or A-3. Aces of diamonds :club:

#13 mcpickl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:14 PM

A lot of you are focusing on DNs call of the shove, and not liking that. That's an autocall I think. There's 55ish grand in the middle and only 22K to call. He's most likely in a near coin flip at that point, as the only holdings that have him in jail are flopped flushes, a PP higher than 8s with a diamond and a King with a diamond kicker higher than Daniels' 8. That's a real small part of Isaacs range.Most spots I'd guess he's up against a King no diamond, or the ace of diamonds. Daniel probably already knows he's calling a shove before he checkraises.The only plays that I think are worth comment on are whether you'd reraise preflop, or just call the flop rather than reraise.I'd probably just call the flop, because I'm nittier than the average bear. I see the reraise though, because of what I said above plus Isaac is probably raising/c betting wide from the cutoff, and with Isaccs 30BB stack size Daniel probably gets some folds and wins the pot right there. Also probably better than just calling in case Isaac just cbet with garbage, but that garbage connects with a cheap turn or free river card.I'd like to know Daniels stack size here, as I'd be more likely to make this play if I was considerably deeper than opponents 30BB.
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#14 poker4adummy

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:20 PM

View Postmcpickl, on Sunday, April 29th, 2012, 9:14 PM, said:

A lot of you are focusing on DNs call of the shove, and not liking that. That's an autocall I think. There's 55ish grand in the middle and only 22K to call. He's most likely in a near coin flip at that point, as the only holdings that have him in jail are flopped flushes, and a King with a diamond kicker higher than Daniels' 8. That's a real small part of Isaacs range.Most spots I'd guess he's up against a King no diamond, or the ace of diamonds. Daniel probably already knows he's calling a shove before he checkraises.The only plays that I think are worth comment on are whether you'd reraise preflop, or just call the flop rather than reraise.I'd probably just call the flop, because I'm nittier than the average bear. I see the reraise though, because of what I said above plus Isaac is probably raising/c betting wide from the cutoff, and with Isaccs 30BB stack size Daniel probably gets a fold and wins the pot right there. Also probably better than just calling in case Isaac just cbet with garbage, but that garbage connects with a cheap turn or free river card.I'd like to know Daniels stack size here, as I'd be more likely to make this play if I was considerably deeper than opponents 30BB.
And 99-QQ, AA with a diamond which are all realistic possibilities. Based on what's given Ike has ~37k to start the hand so ~30BB. I'd much rather 3 bet preflop / decide if 4 bet than played as was pre. His range of getting it in on the flop is clearly ahead of yours but you're still committed once you raise the flop. I would prefer finding a way to close the action with a shove instead of calling it off on the flop. That would either be leading into him and 3 bet shoving if he raises or simply jamming his flop bet.

#15 mcpickl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:30 PM

View Postpoker4adummy, on Sunday, April 29th, 2012, 5:20 PM, said:

And 99-QQ, AA with a diamond which are all realistic possibilities. Based on what's given Ike has ~37k to start the hand so ~30BB. I'd much rather 3 bet preflop / decide if 4 bet than played as was pre. His range of getting it in on the flop is clearly ahead of yours but you're still committed once you raise the flop. I would prefer finding a way to close the action with a shove instead of calling it off on the flop. That would either be leading into him and 3 bet shoving if he raises or simply jamming his flop bet.
correctfixed my post tyTo your post, I disagree with jamming over the flop bet. In that spot he's getting called by a worse range than is shoving over his checkraise. He's folding the bottom part of his range and calling with the top of his range.
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#16 thedevilinme

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:43 PM

I guess it all comes down to his image...with his repop I would put him on ace king with the ace of diamonds but the way the hand played he was c-betting most of the time so your bet on flop would be the play and you are pot commuted after that

#17 Phil Galfond

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:49 PM

Hey Daniel,Just registered today when I saw this hand. Looking forward to checking out the forums. Sorry in advance - I tend to talk too much when it comes to strategy, so this probably will end up longer than it needs to be. Here are my opinions-Preflop:This seems somewhat close between calling and shoving, but I would rather shove. Looks like effective stacks were around 39k to start the hand. This is important, as is who covers whom and by how much.Assuming this is 9 handed, there's 6500 in the pot before calling his raise. You're a little bit deeper than I generally like to shove (though I think many of these hot-shot young kid tourney pros would disagree), but I think this is a good spot for it. Ike will be opening very very wide here, especially if he perceives the button and sb as weaker/tighter players. Did he? He'd open less frequently if there were a tough player on the button or in the sb with between 15 and 25k. Was there? His stack matters too, but not as much for how often he opens. I wouldn't be shocked to see him open 100% in this spot, given the right players and stacks involved. I would be shocked if he opened less than 50% of hands, unless there were a very active short stack behind him.Anyways, I didn't run the math, but I'm positive it would show shoving to be very +EV (which means much better than folding). I'd be happy to run through it, by the way, if anyone would like. That's not the whole story, since calling is certainly better than folding too.Analyzing the value of a call is hard. I don't have a method to get an accurate estimate (I haven't tried very hard, since it matters very little in cash games). Calling 88 against Ike's wide range with all the money already in the pot is clearly +EV (compared to folding). I'm just guessing it's less +EV than shoving.Ike is extremely smart and tough, which is even worse for you than extremely smart and less tough, since that type of player would let you get to showdown more easily. You're out of position- regardless of where you rate your postflop skill level vs. Ike's, as long as it's somewhere in the ballpark, you have to agree that position is powerful enough to ensure that he'll have a "postflop advantage" - another thing difficult to assign real $ value to.You have the kind of hand that rarely flops something that you want to get all-in with against his value range, and often flops something that you'd like to take to showdown cheaply, or perhaps to protectAgainst a weak player, I would always call. They'd often let you get to showdown cheaply, and you can out-read and out-manouver them, generating lots of extra EV. (A weaker player would also often have a tighter preflop range, making a shove preflop less profitable)One final consideration: If we somehow knew that the EV of calling and the EV of shoving were the same (in terms of chips), it would still be better to shove. Assuming you don't have 4x his stack or more (in which case you can ignore this), there is value in preserving your tournament life, or the majority of your stack. Our EV comes in different ways, depending on if we call or shove.-If we shove, the overwhelming majority of the time, we pick up 6500 chips. A very small % of the time, we get all in with maybe slightly over 40% equity on average. -If we call, we are much more likely to get stacks in, or to get a sizable part of our stack in before folding or before he folds. This (counterintuitively to some) increases our variance compared to shoving preflop, which is especially bad in tournaments.I think it was Sklansky (your fave) that showed that the value of each chip you gain in a tournament is less than the value of each chip you lose... or something like that. Point being, it's important to minimize variance, and to avoid coinflips for your stack or large parts of it... even more important if you have a decent skill advantage over the field.*It's also an option to 3bet to a smaller amount than all-in. This makes you and your ranges tougher, but I think works out poorly given tournament life considerations. I'm not sure how often Ike calls, or if he'd only shove or fold. I think it makes more sense, and is much easier, to shove hands like 88, A5s, and AQo and to 3bet smaller with air and hands like JJ+.Flop:I love the way you played the flop, and it's something I don't do enough of in tournaments. My instinctive reaction is to call and figure it out later, but I think your play is so much better. I'm not sure if it's for the same reasons I like it or not (or if it was based on some very cool reads), but I'd rather hear your thought process than get into mine.Nice hand.-Phil

#18 mcpickl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostPhil Galfond, on Sunday, April 29th, 2012, 5:49 PM, said:

Hey Daniel,Just registered today when I saw this hand. Looking forward to checking out the forums. Sorry in advance - I tend to talk too much when it comes to strategy, so this probably will end up longer than it needs to be. Here are my opinions-
Not possible Phil, the more the betterWelcome to the forum
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#19 Yogi707

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:35 PM

Interested to see how the hand played out.My first reaction was it looked like the sort of call I would make as I donk my way out of a sit and go.And most of the comments seem to think it wasn't a great play.But then Phil Galfond (and I assume Daniel) seem to think it was a great play.I guess that's why they're playing Super High Roller events and I'm still donking my way out of Sit and Goes :club:

#20 rouliroul

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:48 PM

View PostPhil Galfond, on Sunday, April 29th, 2012, 6:49 PM, said:

Preflop:This seems somewhat close between calling and shoving, but I would rather shove.
Wait what? I've got stacks at 36.9k effective. You're advocating shoving 30bb effective over a 2.4bb open? Sure, a shove is slightly +EV vs his opening range, but a 3bet to a bit over 10k is clearly better.




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