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Mistake In Ept Grand Final


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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:14 AM

So I'd been grinding with anywhere from 15-25 big blinds for most of the last 4 hours then got myself up to 27 bbs before the following hand. The tightest player at the table opened from middle position, then to his left a Russian kid who'd been VERY active 3-bet to 7300. I was in the big blind with Ah Qh and decided to go all in for 27,300. Can anyone pinpoint the specific reason I realized this was a mistake? On the surface it sounds standard, going all in against a "Mad Russian" with s strong hand in the hopes of doubling up, but once I busted and walked up to my room it hit me that I'd made a mistake...
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#2 jgsiegel

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:18 AM

Maybe putting AQ up against two players wasn't smart because there was a good chance one of them raised with AA, KK, AK or QQ?

#3 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:25 AM

View Postjgsiegel, on Friday, April 27th, 2012, 9:18 AM, said:

Maybe putting AQ up against two players wasn't smart because there was a good chance one of them raised with AA, KK, AK or QQ?
Typically, as mentioned, this Russian kid was VERY active so AQ suited is way ahead of his range. Something more specific.
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#4 Deemer6

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:26 AM

I assume the mad russian would not 3bet light vs the tightest player at the table?
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#5 iBinkThereforeIam

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:27 AM

The Russian would have also known that the tightest player at the table would only be opening with premium holdings and so he himself was likely to have a hand that justified a re raise (aces or kings)

#6 jgsiegel

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:27 AM

Was the mistake just the general all-in? You could have called the 7300, checked the flop no matter what came, and if you hit something huge, let him bet into you. If you miss, fold it and walk away still having 20k?

#7 inheritance

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:30 AM

If you just call preflop, you can avoid the tight players monsters by folding pre. Had tight player fold you can stop and go on the mad russian with virtually the same result against him. Would work best if the tight player had a "shove/fold" stack.

#8 johnnymft

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:30 AM

The raise in middle position from the tightest player at the table probably sends a bad decision signal. If he's been the tightest player there is a good chance he finally has a big hand a decided to make a move. Depending on his thought process maybe he thought that his table image of being tight would be enough to scare everyone off either way and he could win the blinds.
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#9 ZakWray

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:31 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Friday, April 27th, 2012, 5:14 PM, said:

So I'd been grinding with anywhere from 15-25 big blinds for most of the last 4 hours then got myself up to 27 bbs before the following hand. The tightest player at the table opened from middle position, then to his left a Russian kid who'd been VERY active 3-bet to 7300. I was in the big blind with Ah Qh and decided to go all in for 27,300. Can anyone pinpoint the specific reason I realized this was a mistake? On the surface it sounds standard, going all in against a "Mad Russian" with s strong hand in the hopes of doubling up, but once I busted and walked up to my room it hit me that I'd made a mistake...
Specific reason is that the TIGHTEST player at the table opened first so his range is very strong, Russian may also be aware of this, thus affecting his range for this hand in isolation?

#10 themusicofsound

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:31 AM

Do you think the Russian would be priced in if the tighter player called?

#11 Protential

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:31 AM

Chances are the active russian 3-bettor was a younger player, and thus a good online reg. Thus, while he may have an active image, he is still only likely to be 3betting hands he is comfortable getting it in vs the original raiser. The tight player is probably only opening like 910s+, 66+/AJ+. He will likely also just fold everything but 1010+/AK to 3bets. The russian kid is aware of this, and thus wont be 3betting hands like AJ/KQ/AQ/99-JJ. The russian kid is also going to be aware fo the effective stacks behind, and realizes he could get 4bet jammed on wide by some1 like yourself with 25-35bb deep. So the russian kid's 3bet range here should be like AQs/AK/JJ+ and close to no bluffs. So jamming AQs here is prolly costing us 1-2bb in chip equity each time we do it. If you add in skill edge factors with the effectiveness of having a 25bb+ stack in a good live tourney, and icm factors due to only being able to play a limited amount of games live lifetime. Makes shoving anything less than AK/QQ+ spew.Just my .02 TL;DR :This is fine online, but spew in a good live tourney.
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#12 jdan13

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:32 AM

3 bet by russian vs. extremely tight player in middle position would make ya think...

#13 jjgoldy5

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:38 AM

You're probably better off waiting for a 4-bet situation on the Russian with a lesser hand when he 3 bets anyone else at the table. Even if the tight guy folds, you can assume his 3b range is significantly tighter in this specific hand since the kid presumably had a few people left to act behind him as well. You obviously have the opener to worry about and from both of their perspectives you are laying them a decent price and giving them the chance to knock out the best player at the table.

#14 moorman2

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:39 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Friday, April 27th, 2012, 8:14 AM, said:

So I'd been grinding with anywhere from 15-25 big blinds for most of the last 4 hours then got myself up to 27 bbs before the following hand. The tightest player at the table opened from middle position, then to his left a Russian kid who'd been VERY active 3-bet to 7300. I was in the big blind with Ah Qh and decided to go all in for 27,300. Can anyone pinpoint the specific reason I realized this was a mistake? On the surface it sounds standard, going all in against a "Mad Russian" with s strong hand in the hopes of doubling up, but once I busted and walked up to my room it hit me that I'd made a mistake...
Or is tight and prsumably realises he is the tightest player. Despite this Mad Russian has 3 bet him so even if tighty is using his image mad russian hasto assume that he has got the goods. Therfore one of them is likely to dominate you and the other 1 at best is likely to be a flipp 88 +

#15 jcoop89

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:54 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Friday, April 27th, 2012, 12:14 PM, said:

So I'd been grinding with anywhere from 15-25 big blinds for most of the last 4 hours then got myself up to 27 bbs before the following hand. The tightest player at the table opened from middle position, then to his left a Russian kid who'd been VERY active 3-bet to 7300. I was in the big blind with Ah Qh and decided to go all in for 27,300. Can anyone pinpoint the specific reason I realized this was a mistake? On the surface it sounds standard, going all in against a "Mad Russian" with s strong hand in the hopes of doubling up, but once I busted and walked up to my room it hit me that I'd made a mistake...
Stack sizes? Would be helpful to know what MP and the Russian kid were sitting with. Assuming they were both deeper stacked than you, and given their table images, it's likely you could get called down too often by either the Russian (whose range is probably from 88+, AT-Js) or the tight player in MP who was sitting there with a monster. Obviously you wouldn't mind playing against the Russian's range of hands, but given the scenario, I'd imagine that his hand would generally be closer to the top of his range than the bottom. Any pair in the Russian's range is most likely to call, and if the tight player in MP is sitting with QQ+, you're screwed. Very standard online play, but given table images and stack sizes, questionable move in that scenario.

#16 answer20

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

I would have to give some credit to the kid knowing the opener was tight and he was trying to isolate or make it harder for anyone else to call. Not so sure you want to flat call here hoping that Mr. Tight does the same. Sure, if he folds or calls, you can now shove a good Flop for your hand. Odds are here that at least one .... and more than likely both ... players have 'made' hands and you are drawing to your flush and even less likely strt possibilities since you are all probably sharing cards. Fold 75% of time ... Flat 25% of the time with fingers crossed.

#17 jcoop89

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:27 AM

View Postanswer20, on Friday, April 27th, 2012, 1:16 PM, said:

I would have to give some credit to the kid knowing the opener was tight and he was trying to isolate or make it harder for anyone else to call. Not so sure you want to flat call here hoping that Mr. Tight does the same. Sure, if he folds or calls, you can now shove a good Flop for your hand. Odds are here that at least one .... and more than likely both ... players have 'made' hands and you are drawing to your flush and even less likely strt possibilities since you are all probably sharing cards. Fold 75% of time ... Flat 25% of the time with fingers crossed.
Why would you ever flat there? Would you then fold to a shove from the tight player? Silly to make any play besides shoving "with fingers crossed." Gotta avoid making any decisions like that in tournament poker. Fold it knowing you'll definitely be able to find a better shove spot later on, even if it is with only 20 BBs. Obviously hind sight is 20/20, but I am curious to hear who/what you were called down by

#18 answer20

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:29 AM

View Postjcoop89, on Friday, April 27th, 2012, 1:27 PM, said:

Why would you ever flat there? Would you then fold to a shove from the tight player? Silly to make any play besides shoving "with fingers crossed." Gotta avoid making any decisions like that in tournament poker. Fold it knowing you'll definitely be able to find a better shove spot later on, even if it is with only 20 BBs. Obviously hind sight is 20/20, but I am curious to hear who/what you were called down by
Not sure which player it is, but KK called and board blanked out ... :club: ... flat call is unconventional and could slow down KK there so you can see a Flop and maybe even triple up with a nice board and check/shove. I am cash guy, so thanks for tournament input.

#19 My2cents

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:08 AM

The tightest player opening in mid pos should have set off alarms. The Russian 3 bet to see if "tight" was bluffing, and you had been playing for hours. Perhaps just too tired? Or was that tight player Freddie Deebs? LOL

#20 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:14 AM

Yeah, the obviously clue I missed was that the Russian could should also be aware that the tightest player at the table opened, so THIS 3-bet is very different than all the other 3 bets and shoves he made on others. In hindsight I think his rangs is 99+ and AQ+ so its an easy fold for me, but I guess I was a bit tired and finally got impatient grinding that short stack for what seemed like ages and just wanted to get it in. Stupid maids walked into my room at 8:30am and woke my ass up by slamming the door shut and I was in REM sleep at the time, got groggy... then sloppy that hand.
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