28 replies to this topic

[AmScray]

I think this is more politics and news than it is football.For those unfamiliar with the story: Cliffs.Ryan Leaf, enormous quarterback prospect, picked #2 in the 1998 NFL draft behind Manning who was taken #1. There was considerable debate at the time whether or not taking Manning over Leaf was wise.In short order, he completely melted down and showed that, while he posessed a fantastic arm and athleticism, he had *absolutely* nothing else required to QB at the NFL (or NFL Europe, or CFL) level. Three years later, he was out of the league and football all together. He quickly earned the title Biggest Bust in NFL History and regularly competes for the top slot whenever 'Biggest Bust In Professional Sports' is discussed. In spite of finding himself in an uncomfortable and somewhat shitty place in the universe, he seemed to get his life on track and perhaps, found some peace. He went back to college and got a BS in Humanities. He landed a job at West Texas Q&M as a Mens Golf Coach, where he also volunteered as a Quarterbacks Coach for the football team. Apparently, at some point along the way, he got hooked on pills and in 2008, he was fired when he asked one of his players to give him some pill that he was prescribed. He moved to Canada to go to rehab but apparently, while he was at WTA&M, he had burglarized a players home to get his pain pills, plus the typical 'doctor shopping' routine that all pillheads go through. He was lucky- In 2010, he was sentenced to no prison, 10 years probation. A few weeks ago, he was busted again on... (drumroll)... burglary, theft and drug charges. http://www.greatfall...y-theft-chargesThe DA in Texas is violating his probation, so it's a virtual certainty that he's going to prison. The only question is, for how long. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be him, the whispers, the colossal and highly visible failure. I'd suckstart the nearest shotgun. So, he has a monkey on his back. It's no shock. I know what its like to employ substances to deal with pain and mental anguish. In the United States, we deal with addicts via prison and punishment. Matter of fact, criminalization and incarceration is pretty much how we deal with everything here. In other countries, they deal with addicts via the medical system. Granted, there's a gray area where addict-behavior and crime can conflate- he's apparently going around burglarizing places to get drugs, but the narrative here in the United States- LOCK HIM UP AND HAVE HIM BREAK ROCKS FOR A FEW YEARS!!!- is very different than in other places. So, how do we deal with addicts like this? (I so solemnly promise not to berate the ****tards who give the wrong answer, either. I'm genuinely curious to hear what the 13 people on Full Contact Poker think about this issue)

[akoff]

he is a train wreck...it is sad what pills do to people. i know a guy who has this problem, he should be dead but somehow he is not. his family and society would be better off...sadly i think he might be as well. He has gone into OD several times, he was found passed out in his car in North Philly (think, gangs, whores and murder and you have north philly, it is also know as the badlands) foaming from the mouth, he had been on the hunt for more drugs - it is all bad. my opinion is small labor camps where the activities are controled and the day consists of hard physical work, where 100 percent of your time and activies are monitored may be the only thing to break the habit....i don't say this because i want him dead or because i like the idea of chain gangs but the total lack of control, the cost of money and pain to the family, the fact that he has 2 kids when he never should have been reproducing...what chance to do his kids have? he has been in and out of several rehab programs over the last few years with zero good results. knowing the family as i do they are good people but liberal democrats (not as liberal that the yahoos on here but still way left of reasonable) somehow they don't believe it is his fault but that he fell through the cracks of the system...crazy but out of respect for them i never bother to tell them they are wrong.

[Pot Odds RAC]

Both.He has a drug (perhaps "medical") problem that turned into a legal problem. I know a little about addiction and certainly have some empathy for the addict, but ultimately both problems and their resulting consequences are his responsibility.

[LongLiveYorke]

It has to be a combination of both. I think the issue is with prisons being a one-size-fits-all situation, which leads to criminals living with worse criminals and no one getting any kind of rehabilitation. I'm not sure how to elaborate because it's not an easy issue, but medical attention and therapy should be part of his treatment.But I'm guessing that when he received probation in the past over prison, he probably had to get therapy, no? It seems that he's gone through a lot of his chances for leniency.

[mrdannyg]

At this stage, I don't think you can not include some jail time. I'm very happy when I see an obvious drug-related crime receive probation only, assuming there are conditions requiring therapy and rehab. Then again, I'm realizing as I type this I don't know how this works in the US, where I presume many addicts don't have health insurance (or invalidate it with their addiction), so not sure who is paying for medical treatment.Other countries deal with addicts via the medical system, though not typically in a way exclusive from the prison system if we're also talking about multiple felonies.

[iZuma]

do we have any sort of stats that prove rehab works in any sort if meaningful way as opposed to simply removing the person from society? don't think we could make a "one or the other" choice without hard data as to the real effectiveness. six sigma and all.

[AmScray]

Youd have to define 'works'.

[BigDMcGee]

I voted medical, as I think essentially what's ailing him is a brain disease, but I think it really depends what our goals are. Rehab has an incredibly shitty result rate. Or at least, a really high relapse rate. Conversely, Jail won't rehabilitate him.. it might break him, but it won't treat his addiction. If our goal is to ahve him stop acting like a degenerate and stop breaking into people's houses, I don't think there's an easy answer. Honestly, I think this is what religion is for. What Leaf needs is a cult. A deep and profound religious conversion, with a support group of crazy people monitoring and shaping his behavior at all times.

[mrdannyg]

BigDMcGee, on Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 12:55 PM, said:

I voted medical, as I think essentially what's ailing him is a brain disease, but I think it really depends what our goals are. Rehab has an incredibly shitty result rate. Or at least, a really high relapse rate. Conversely, Jail won't rehabilitate him.. it might break him, but it won't treat his addiction. If our goal is to ahve him stop acting like a degenerate and stop breaking into people's houses, I don't think there's an easy answer. Honestly, I think this is what religion is for. What Leaf needs is a cult. A deep and profound religious conversion, with a support group of crazy people monitoring and shaping his behavior at all times.

That is an excellent point. Maybe we can direct him to the nearest church?

[iZuma]

given a sample set of drug addicts: recidivism (specifically criminal acts, not drug use itself) after/during treatment vs. the same after incarceration. I think that would be a good place to start. the ultimate decision would have to also include some factoring for cost (fairly easy) and for human rights/civil liberties considerations (super difficult). and I also think the final decision has to be made in terms of the total effect on society in regards to the crime rate instead what's "nice" for drug addicts.

[BigDMcGee]

iZuma, on Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 11:06 AM, said:

and I also think the final decision has to be made in terms of the total effect on society in regards to the crime rate instead what's "nice" for drug addicts.

[iZuma]

guess I'm too stupid to understand what was so stupid about that statement

[BigDMcGee]

iZuma, on Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 11:58 AM, said:

guess I'm too stupid to understand what was so stupid about that statement

No you're not, but you are too stupid to understand I was posting a strawman.

[iZuma]

ah but you posted a very specific straw man so I'm still scoring that one for me (official balloon guy scoring system). and I don't really think it was a strawman but whatevs.

[BigDMcGee]

iZuma, on Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 12:30 PM, said:

ah but you posted a very specific straw man so I'm still scoring that one for me (official balloon guy scoring system). and I don't really think it was a strawman but whatevs.

LOOK AT ALL THESE PEOPLE SAYING WE NEED TO BE NICE TO THE DRUG ADDICTS!!!

[iZuma]

for the question of "how do we deal with addicts (who commit crimes)" I stated that it should simply be a fact/data based decision concerning what actually works with the importance being placed on the effects to society as a whole, i.e. if rehabilitation isn't effective, then removal from society is ok (even though it's not nice). not sure how that changes/distracts from the topic.

[BigDMcGee]

iZuma, on Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 1:10 PM, said:

for the question of "how do we deal with addicts (who commit crimes)" I stated that it should simply be a fact/data based decision concerning what actually works with the importance being placed on the effects to society as a whole, i.e. if rehabilitation isn't effective, then removal from society is ok (even though it's not nice). not sure how that changes/distracts from the topic.

I'm just saying that of course that the decision needs to be made on the total benefit of society. The idea that we need to make the decision based on what's nice for the addict is a straw man. No one was suggesting it should be otherwise, and if someone does, they should be mocked.

[iZuma]

oh ok, then yeah I agree. I guess I was just being overwrought, mainly because I know how much all the liberals here love drug addicts.

[BigDMcGee]

iZuma, on Thursday, April 26th, 2012, 1:51 PM, said:

oh ok, then yeah I agree. I guess I was just being overwrought, mainly because I know how much all the liberals here love drugs.

FYP

[The Ocho]

How can the answer be anything but the criminal justice system? Not only was he already on probation, but he broke, entered and stole.