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Exploitation Of The Trayvon Martin Killing


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#1 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:55 AM

This is a fantastic article with actual facts and stuff. http://www.nationalr...ther-mac-donaldCalling Caine, WTF is the "Stand Your Ground" law. I can understand a law where you can chase someone down and kill them after they rob you at gunpoint in a situation where you aren't on your property. But in this situation, the guy was in effect trying to kidnapp the kid (as far as the kid new) so of course he is going to fight him. Even in Texas, the perp has to be in "gunshot range" of your property before it is legal to shoot em. You can't pursue them off of your property. Of course the facts are probably quite a bit different than the narrative the media has put out. But it is all we have to go on.
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#2 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:05 AM

The original link I posted was bad. I edited in a new one which appears, at least for now, to work.
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#3 CaneBrain

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:06 AM

View PostZealous Donkey, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 11:55 AM, said:

This is a fantastic article with actual facts and stuff. http://www.nationalr...ther-mac-donaldCalling Caine, WTF is the "Stand Your Ground" law. I can understand a law where you can chase someone down and kill them after they rob you at gunpoint in a situation where you aren't on your property. But in this situation, the guy was in effect trying to kidnapp the kid (as far as the kid new) so of course he is going to fight him. Even in Texas, the perp has to be in "gunshot range" of your property before it is legal to shoot em. You can't pursue them off of your property. Of course the facts are probably quite a bit different than the narrative the media has put out. But it is all we have to go on.
Your link is broken for me.Stand your ground, in essence, spreads the "Castle Doctrine" to any area you have a right to be. Under the castle doctrine, you have the right to defend yourself in your house. You do not have to retreat even if you have the opportunity to do so. Stand your ground eliminates the duty to retreat in any area a person can lawfully be. So, if a guy attacks you with a lead pipe in a parking lot and you have the opportunity to run away, you can still use deadly force on him with a gun. In some states, if you can defuse the situation without deadly force by easily running away, you cannot use deadly force.I agree with you (and Gingrich and Santorum to be fair to conservative politicians) that stand your ground does not apply here. Zimmerman created the situation by chasing after the kid with a gun even though the 911 operator specifically told him not to do so. Self-defense laws like stand your ground should NOT be available to people who willingly create the situation by following someone else. The Sanford police department should be ashamed of themselves for letting Zimmerman just go home by using that defense.
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#4 Balloon guy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:07 AM

Guy had a broken nose and bleeding from wound on back of headWill likely be killed
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#5 CaneBrain

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:13 AM

I think that article accurately documents other problems the black community has. I think it's disingenuous to wonder why black leaders are showing up for this case and not others; in those cases, someone was arrested for the shooting. A person who creates a dangerous situation, shoots an unarmed kid, and then gets to go home (no holding period, no investigation, drug test the victim not the shooter, etc) is a protest worthy event regardless of color. The way this was handled awful and fits right into the narrative that the police treat white on black violence differently than other violence.This is not about prevalence; we all acknowledge that most black victims of violence have black assailants. The author of this article points out that the police try hard to solve those cases even when the no-snitching code thwarts them. Why didn't the police try at all in the case of Trayvon Martin?
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#6 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:15 AM

[quote name='CaneBrain' date='Monday, March 26th, 2012, 10:06 AM' post='3544546']Your link is broken for me.[quote]If you click link in the op it should be working now.
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#7 CaneBrain

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 12:07 PM, said:

If a guy shows up out of nowhere with a gun, I might freak out too (assuming any of that is true).Zimmerman told 911 "these ****ers always get away". He made sure Trayvon Martin didn't get away. If it turns out Zimmerman investigated and Trayvon Martin jumped him for no reason then fine Zimmerman should go home. My indignation isn't that I'm "sure" Zimmerman is guilty. My indignation is the police seemed to do as little as they possibly could to find out the truth---they ran more tests on the dead body than they did on the shooter.
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#8 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:27 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 10:16 AM, said:

If a guy shows up out of nowhere with a gun, I might freak out too (assuming any of that is true).Zimmerman told 911 "these ****ers always get away". He made sure Trayvon Martin didn't get away. If it turns out Zimmerman investigated and Trayvon Martin jumped him for no reason then fine Zimmerman should go home. My indignation isn't that I'm "sure" Zimmerman is guilty. My indignation is the police seemed to do as little as they possibly could to find out the truth---they ran more tests on the dead body than they did on the shooter.
I think it is too early to know if police were in the wrong here or not. Another question, I have read in a couple of reports that this was a "gated community" what does gated mean in Florida. Where I am from, gated would mean you couldn't just walk through the neighborhood unless you scaled a large fence or wall. I guess my question is, how was he just be-bopping along with his tea and skittles through a gated community?
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#9 Balloon guy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:32 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 9:06 AM, said:

Your link is broken for me.Stand your ground, in essence, spreads the "Castle Doctrine" to any area you have a right to be. Under the castle doctrine, you have the right to defend yourself in your house. You do not have to retreat even if you have the opportunity to do so. Stand your ground eliminates the duty to retreat in any area a person can lawfully be. So, if a guy attacks you with a lead pipe in a parking lot and you have the opportunity to run away, you can still use deadly force on him with a gun. In some states, if you can defuse the situation without deadly force by easily running away, you cannot use deadly force.I agree with you (and Gingrich and Santorum to be fair to conservative politicians) that stand your ground does not apply here. Zimmerman created the situation by chasing after the kid with a gun even though the 911 operator specifically told him not to do so. Self-defense laws like stand your ground should NOT be available to people who willingly create the situation by following someone else. The Sanford police department should be ashamed of themselves for letting Zimmerman just go home by using that defense.
Although I agree that following the kid adds some of the responsibility to the hispanic guy, he also had a job sanctioned by the police ( they did train them after all ) and was in the process of following a 'suspicious person'.A dispatcher telling you not do the job you were trained for isn't the same as an actual law enforcement person. They are glorified phone operators. Let's not act like he was required by law to obey a 911 operator.Also this PC notion that we are supposed to avoid bad guys and duck and hide and let them have free reign is not only cowardly, it's stupid. Zimmerman was trained by the police, was armed with a legal firearm, and was entrusted to protect his neighborhood. He sees a person he doesn't recognize, follows him and calls the police ( all perfectly acceptable actions by any reasonable person's opinion ) The dispatcher says ( don't follow him anymore ) Zimmerman says screw that. If he gets away, he gets to continue breaking laws elsewhere. If I'm not going to stand up to him, someone with police training, police on the way, and willing to stop a law breaker from targeting my neighborhood, then I might as well just leave our doors unlocked, hide in the basement and beg the bad guys not to hurt us.Giving the kid the benefit of the doubt, he sees some hispanic guy following him and yelling at him. He gets scarred, worried he's about to be mugged? So he turns and punches the guy in the face, breaking his nose. He jumps on the guy, knocking him to the ground and while on top of him he is hitting him. Heck now he's not sure what he wants to do, probably just leave. Then the guy pulls a gun and shoots him.I think both guys would never have asked for the situation to escalate. Both got caught up and it ended badly. The hispanic guy probably is guilty of not meeting force with a reasonable level of counter force. He brought a gun to a fist fight as it were.But the reality is this nation now believes a lie, that a young happy kid was skipping and an old racist republican shot him in the back for walking black in his neighborhood. This notion is being pushed for opportunist to exploit. The end result is this guy will either be killed in vigilante style justice ( which is ironic that that's exactly what they are accusing him of ) or he will be tried for charges that don't apply, be found innocent because of an over reaching prosecution trying to appease a misinformed community, and riots will happens for justice.
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#10 FCP Bob

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:34 AM

Trayvon Martin was actually the one who had the right to use deadly force according to Florida Law.
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#11 Balloon guy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:38 AM

You mean this Bob?Posted Image
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#12 CaneBrain

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:41 AM

View PostZealous Donkey, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 12:27 PM, said:

I think it is too early to know if police were in the wrong here or not. Another question, I have read in a couple of reports that this was a "gated community" what does gated mean in Florida. Where I am from, gated would mean you couldn't just walk through the neighborhood unless you scaled a large fence or wall. I guess my question is, how was he just be-bopping along with his tea and skittles through a gated community?
I don't think it's early. When the gunman creates the situation, you can't just let him go. I have no idea on the gated community stuff.Bg, you are little better than the opportunists like Al Sharpton, in that you have assumed ALL the facts in Zimmerman's favor to conclude that this was just a big misunderstanding that tragically escalated. All I have said is that there is MORE than enough here to warrant an arrest and an investigation and a jury should decide if Zimmerman's use of force was reasonable. Whether he was justified is at the very least questionable, that's more than enough to arrest and try him....an unarmed 17 year old is dead. If the jury agrees with his use of force, so be it. Just letting him go with no investigation was pathetic and you know it.The idea that if you see someone you don't know that it's ok to assume that if you let him get away, he will commit crimes elsewhere is gross. Zimmerman had no legitimate reason to suspect that this was a criminal getting away. He wasn't running. He wasn't carrying a flat screen. That's such bullshit I feel sorry for you that you could think like that. That kind of thinking is exactly what the race opportunists like Sharpton believe was going on here. If that's what Zimmerman thought, **** him.
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#13 CaneBrain

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:47 AM

for the record, that's not what I believe happened. I think the incredible amount of 911 calls Zimmerman made coupled with his comments about how they always get away shows a guy who was paranoid and pissed off about the crime in his neighborhood and decided to do something about it and acted very recklessly and a kid doing nothing wrong ended up dead. But, that's just a guess, it's very hard to say what happened and trayvon Martin is dead so he can't. That justifies at least an investigation and trial and let a jury decide.
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#14 iZuma

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:57 AM

I've been leaning more toward the "zimmerman is at fault and should be arrested side" but my biggest question really is: why hasn't he been? I mean I could buy the inept police force thing during the initial investigation, but with all the interest and pressure to arrest him and they still haven't? there just has to be more to the story than we're hearing. the whole of florida's jusice system is not some kkk backed black kid hating group hell bent on conspiring to allow white hispanics (lol at that by the way) kill black kids. there has to be a reason they haven't arrested him (though if there is, you'd think they'd be more forthcoming with why).

#15 Balloon guy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:57 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 9:41 AM, said:

I don't think it's early. When the gunman creates the situation, you can't just let him go. I have no idea on the gated community stuff.
Gated community, but the kid was staying in the community visiting his father's girlfriend.

Quote

Bg, you are little better than the opportunists like Al Sharpton, in that you have assumed ALL the facts in Zimmerman's favor to conclude that this was just a big misunderstanding that tragically escalated. All I have said is that there is MORE than enough here to warrant an arrest and an investigation and a jury should decide if Zimmerman's use of force was reasonable. Whether he was justified is at the very least questionable, that's more than enough to arrest and try him....an unarmed 17 year old is dead. If the jury agrees with his use of force, so be it. Just letting him go with no investigation was pathetic and you know it.
If I am making these assumptions as an opportunist, its only a reaction to the overwhelming slanted way this entire thing has been portrayed. But like I said, Zimmerman escalated the situation, if he's found guilty of negligent homicide, I won't scream 'injustice'

Quote

The idea that if you see someone you don't know that it's ok to assume that if you let him get away, he will commit crimes elsewhere is gross. Zimmerman had no legitimate reason to suspect that this was a criminal getting away. He wasn't running. He wasn't carrying a flat screen. That's such bullshit I feel sorry for you that you could think like that. That kind of thinking is exactly what the race opportunists like Sharpton believe was going on here. If that's what Zimmerman thought, **** him.
This was the way it was for most of this countries history. What is gross is this feminzation of this country telling us to cower and hide and let bad guys take our stuff as long as they don't hurt us. Good advice for a single mom alone, but if you cower when a guy breaks into your house, then turn in your man card.
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#16 CaneBrain

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:03 AM

View PostiZuma, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 12:57 PM, said:

I've been leaning more toward the "zimmerman is at fault and should be arrested side" but my biggest question really is: why hasn't he been? I mean I could buy the inept police force thing during the initial investigation, but with all the interest and pressure to arrest him and they still haven't? there just has to be more to the story than we're hearing. the whole of florida's jusice system is not some kkk backed black kid hating group hell bent on conspiring to allow white hispanics (lol at that by the way) kill black kids.
I think at first they were just being stubborn (the Sanford police) and didn't want to admit they ****ed up.....then they were happy to step down (as the police chief is doing temporarily) and let the Federal grand jury decide what to do.I'm sorry BG, you know I like you and I don't think you are a racist, but that is a racist thought to me and that is exactly what black activists think happened. This isn't a guy who heard an intruder in his home. I support the castle doctrine. People deserve to feel ultimate safety in their home. This was a kid walking down a street doing NOTHING that resembled any recognized standard of possible criminal activity. Just assuming he was probably a criminal getting away is racist because you can't be basing that on anything other than his skin color. Walking is not suspicious behavior. This has nothing to do with the pussification of America or any stretches you want to make about how the PC police want us to cower before criminals.I will agree with you that this has negligent homicide written all over it. He created a situation recklessly (against the advice of the 911 operator) and a kid died.
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#17 Balloon guy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:03 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 9:47 AM, said:

for the record, that's not what I believe happened. I think the incredible amount of 911 calls Zimmerman made coupled with his comments about how they always get away shows a guy who was paranoid and pissed off about the crime in his neighborhood and decided to do something about it and acted very recklessly and a kid doing nothing wrong ended up dead. But, that's just a guess, it's very hard to say what happened and trayvon Martin is dead so he can't. That justifies at least an investigation and trial and let a jury decide.
I tend to agree with your description.But another thing we don't hear about is that the kid was under a 10 day suspension for being in places he wasn't supposed to be at his school.I didn't hear about Zimmerman's broken nose until 2 weeks after the incident.Nor did I hear about an eyewitness who watched it.Look at the Wiki page about it. It starts off describing Zimmerman as saying he was following someone suspicious, then the next sentence is that he shot him.Ten paragraphs later they mention that he had a bloody face.They give equal credit to some woman who 'heard everything' but never took the time to look outside, and a guy who looked outside, called 9-11 and there is a record of him describing Zimmerman being hit with Zimmerman crying for help in the background.They are going to have a hard time picking a jury for any trial.
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#18 Balloon guy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:11 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 10:03 AM, said:

I think at first they were just being stubborn (the Sanford police) and didn't want to admit they ****ed up.....then they were happy to step down (as the police chief is doing temporarily) and let the Federal grand jury decide what to do.I'm sorry BG, you know I like you and I don't think you are a racist, but that is a racist thought to me and that is exactly what black activists think happened. This isn't a guy who heard an intruder in his home. I support the castle doctrine. People deserve to feel ultimate safety in their home. This was a kid walking down a street doing NOTHING that resembled any recognized standard of possible criminal activity. Just assuming he was probably a criminal getting away is awful. This has nothing to do with the pussification of America or any stretches you want to make about how the PC police want us to cower before criminals.
Object! This is pure speculation.Couldn't the argument be made that just as the story from the beginning was horribly slanted from what actually happened into some Al Sharpton made for TV movie, that the actual facts can support something different than this notion?His own father said:

Quote

Still, Trayvon had nonviolent behavioral issues in school, and on the day he was killed, he had been suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade.“He was not suspended for something dealing with violence or anything like that. It wasn’t a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area [on school property],” Martin said, declining to offer more details.
Couldn't you easily speculate that he was suspended for trying to steal something but getting caught before he actually stole it?Once you make that assumption, you can easily create reasonable doubt that Zimmerman shot a kid for doing "absolutely nothing".
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#19 CaneBrain

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:14 AM

There's no way Zimmerman had access to that information. You are grasping at straws now. He saw a kid walking; he followed that kid. That's his own testimony. If you have any evidence that anyone has said this kid exhibited actual suspicious activity, now would be a good time to share.
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#20 Balloon guy

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:18 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Monday, March 26th, 2012, 10:14 AM, said:

There's no way Zimmerman had access to that information. You are grasping at straws now. He saw a kid walking; he followed that kid. That's his own testimony. If you have any evidence that anyone has said this kid exhibited actual suspicious activity, now would be a good time to share.
I never said Zimmerman would know this. I only implied it can be used to make the case that this kid was not pure innocence. My next argument would be to bring up how many break in s there have been.The number of calls to the police is only relevant if there was never any crimes. Once you establish that there have been a rash of break ins ( forget where I saw this and not looking it up ) then you can create an environment where a stranger walking in a neighborhood, in the rain, is in fact a suspicious person.
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