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1-2 Nl Live - Questionable Play?


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#1 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:27 PM

Finally was able to make a road trip. Currently at the Beau Rivage in Biloxi. Decided to play live poker for the first time in about 4 years, and first time since actually learning the game. To me, it was way different than online. A lot of limping, slow playing weird 2-pairs, slow playing bigger hands, etc. The table was about $200-$300 deep. Half the table was pretty tight, the other half was full of calling station/limpers. I found out pretty quick that the limper/stations would check off 2 streets 3-5 handed, then after I would make a 2/3 pot size bet on the river on some decent boards, they would insta-raise. Also, when I was on the button, when the play was 3-5 handed and you get all checks, I would fire away 2/3 or so, and would get mostly callers. You really couldn't buy the pot. I won a few times where they had middle or bottom pair, and I had top pair/straight. They would just check/call the turn then check/raise the river when the turn and river were just duds. Maybe I am just too used to the micros.Anyway, here is a hand I got killed on. Can't decide if I played this pretty standard, or pretty stupid:8- HandedIdiot (Me) - SB ~$180Tightish Guy - BB ~$400Calling Station/ constant limper with sooted and paint - MP ~$120Tight Player - CO ~$100Tight Decent Player - Button - ~$100I have KcKs5 Limps, I raise to $11. Get the above 4 callers. Board - 7d5d3hI check, BB bets $20. 3 Callers. Been playing for over an hour, and this was the second big pot like this. I am getting a feeling of some pretty heavy drawing, maybe some high cards. I decide to raise to $100. BB thinks for a few seconds, then goes all in. I made the decision before I raised to $100, that if I raised to $100, I really was committed to put the rest in. I put BB on either an AJ+dd, A7/5/3, or flopped set. I don't think he opens with air, and he was not the player to slow play anything like others at the table. In previous hands, he only played flop + if he had a piece of the flop, or was drawing close to the nuts. Of coarse, flopped set. In one hand, I feel like my play was kinda standard, in the other maybe I should have just called to see what happened on the turn, to see if it would have helped anyone with the straight or flush. I could see MP or CO having some kind of 68/24 or paint/x diamonds. They would limp then call any $6-$12 raise PF with some weird shit, and hit a time or two. But then if a dud hit, and BB makes a $50-$60 bet, and what if everyone folds (very possible scenario) then what?? He was capable of making a bluff there because of the pot size, or a Semi-Bluff (more likely scenario) with some kind of small pair A combo. He was the 2nd deepest person at the table. IDK. Maybe I am thinking too much into it because I dumped $180 in one hand. Thoughts??
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#2 BaseJester

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 04:18 AM

Raise much larger preflop. A multiway pot, out of position, facing undefined hands often goes badly. A tightish player doesn't call from the big blind (since he, too, has to play this hand out of position against a large field) here with AX and he he wouldn't stack off with it if he makes a pair.
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#3 CobaltBlue

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 04:24 AM

CS, you raised way way way too small pre-flop. In live, a standard open in that game is going to be $8-10, so with 5 limpers, raising barely more than that is just not going to accomplish what you want to. You want to get value and ideally thin the field too. By raising as small as you did, you're getting called in 5-6 spots almost always (and will be OOP). I mean, even online, that's too small. Online, from the SB, I'd hit the pot button and then add another BB. I think live, I'd say you want to raise to at least $20 here...if not $25. I mean, think about it...their leak is that they're calling too much, yeah? So maximize value while we're 99% sure we've got the best hand. Let them take quite bad odds to try to crack you.As played, once you get to the flop...it's tough to say. I think I'd usually just bet and then sort of cry get it in if it comes to it. I guess c/r is alright if we're sure someone will bet...but you should just ship based on action. Think about it...there's like $55 in the pot pre, then a bet of $20 with 3 callers...so now there's $135 in the pot and you'll have $150 left if you call. You have roughly a pot-sized ship...just go ahead and put it in since the board's wet and we're never folding.All that said, you're probably still getting stacked even if you played it more optimally...but you still want to play the hand better to maximize value. (That is to say, don't get caught up on results.)
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#4 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 05:34 AM

Yeah, PF play to me was really different to what I am used to online at the micros. Not used to so many limpers and 5-6 handed pots. In 2 hours time, I don't think there was ever HU flop, and there was maybe 1-2 3 handed. Most flops were 5 handed. One guy was so tight, I only saw him call a limp once in 2 hours!Two orbits before, BB and another decent player got in a big pot were he stacked the guy for about $150 with K4hh. He called PF raise to $10. He did not play a lot of hands, but when he did they were premium hands/pairs. Flop was K4x rainbow, with the turn being a Q, and the river was 10. It was heavy action on all streets, and I was pretty sure the other guy had a bigger 2 pair or set based on his action. BB threw me off when he tabled K4. Other guy lost with AA. I picked up on when the game started both guys were locals, and there was some history between them, so maybe he had something on the guy?I was thinking his $20 opening was "I got a piece of this, let's see where this goes". When the other 3 called, I was thinking dead money. I really was only worried about BB. I thought about just shoving, but I also knew that by betting $100 here, I really was getting it in no matter what next street. When he went all in I had a gut feeling it was a set, but So, basically 5 handed limping, 5x opening is standard play live. Bad play on my part PF, but really just "one of those hands" Post-flop? Ohh well. Good learning experience. Time to go back downstairs and give it another shot. :)Thanks guys!!
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#5 answer20

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:36 AM

Sorry for your loss in this hand, but I have to agree that if you are going to raise from the blinds with this hand you have to go much higher. I tend to go 1.5 the pot, so $25.00 here, no lower than $18. If someone calls, then they 'should' have something. That board screams bad beat in a 1-2 no-limit game, especially 5-handed. You raised pre-flop so generally you would want to lead out on the Flop and control the pot size. If BB raises you, it wont be for an all-in and you now have some information to work with and actually get to see the next card with options. The other 3 players probably now fold and you can see the Turn heads-up.With 3 calls (no raises) to a bet from a loose player I agree you can think about dead money and 'only' worry about the BB ... this makes you want to raise, sure. But you have to worry about ANY of the 4 having a hand here and what is the BB going to do with a raise and 3 more behind into a now bloated pot if he does have a hand? He has to protect his hand (if he has one) by forcing the all-in knowing he is not going broke and even has river outs if a flush hits the Turn. I think that the only reason he goes all-in on you is because of the 3 remaining players and is willing to take on your hand (over pair or flush draw). This could have been avoided if you CBet and he throws in a more manageable raise for you to smooth call.Also, assuming the other players have pegged the BB as loose, they are going to smooth call pretty much any made hand or draw and let him continue to bet out for them or be in position to bet if they improve on Turn or River and he balks.1. Bigger pre-flop raise .. small wins are better than a large loss.2. If you are going to give up control of the pot (no Cbet) then you really don't want to raise into 4 others unless you have hopes of a decent 5 card hand as anyone calling has you beat or has more 'helpers' in the deck than you do ... yes, they have to hit them, but where are you if the do hit?3. A Cbet may get a raise, but it will not be all-in and you can then see the Turn and maybe still get away ... don't change gears in the middle of a hand. Either play aggressive during the whole hand or slow play the whole hand through Flop and Turn ... then maybe slow down on a bad board for the River unless you get raised in there somewhere, then let them have control of the pot and hope you are still ahead or pass them by somehow if you continue.4. Weird, but something I consider, is that you didn't have the king of diamonds ... one less potential friend left in the deck.5. If you knew you were going to go all-in, then go all-in ... they only had to call $80 into $230 which prices in all 5-card draws at a 1-2 table. Yes, you ran into a set here, but that is not going to happen most of the time ... make them put their money in bad and you will be ahead in the long run.It's never fun to get felted ... biggest issue here is #1 though ... big pairs lose their value quickly in multi-way pots, especially when you are out of position. And #3 ... any time an ace doesn't hit the Flop, you are betting 100% of the time and even 50% of the time when an ace does hit the Flop ... BET!! Good Luck ...

#6 mtdesmoines

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:04 PM

View PostBaseJester, on Monday, March 12th, 2012, 7:18 AM, said:

Raise much larger preflop. A multiway pot, out of position, facing undefined hands often goes badly. A tightish player doesn't call from the big blind (since he, too, has to play this hand out of position against a large field) here with AX and he he wouldn't stack off with it if he makes a pair.

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