13 replies to this topic

[Wily]

SB is a maniac, bets/raise any pair. CO is tight so far. Let them hit their draws, or raise right now? PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is BB with [Ah], [Ac]. UTG calls, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls.Flop: (10 SB) [5s], [Ad], [6s] (5 players)SB bets, UTG calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls.Turn: (9 BB) [5h] (4 players)SB bets, Hero (?)Perhaps being a bit results oriented in this hand - but raising wouldve been correct in this specific case with what my opponents held here. SB had 4-5, and CO had Q 10 . River was a 9 ; maniac SB and I capped it, with the Q-high flush calling all four. Just a small example of how I'm trying to change my play - used to not consider any play but slow play on this turn, but I think overall a raise would've been good since a flush draw will call two cold anyway on the turn.

[BeanGW]

with two players between you and the original raiser, I'd go for the overcalls here. Why make them call two cold when you've got the nutz?You have no need to protect your hand here, and want to get maximum value out of the nutz. If the guys are passive and will fold to a reraise, or if they are aggressive and will make the reraise themselves, in either case a call is better in this situation IMHO.If you call, you give the other two guys reasonable odds to call as well here on the turn (+2 bets) whereas if you raised it's reasonable to assume that only the original raiser would call (+1). I may even do the same thing on the river if I think it will be the best way to get maximum value for my hand. If you're reasonably lucky, you'll even get a raise from one of the two other guys on the turn or river who will bet your hand for you.I wouldn't recommend this play in other situations, but this is a great spot for the overcalls IMHO.

[custom36]

BeanGW said:

with two players between you and the original raiser, I'd go for the overcalls here. Why make them call two cold when you've got the nutz?

[UglyJimStudly]

Wily said:

SB is a maniac, bets/raise any pair. CO is tight so far. Let them hit their draws, or raise right now?

At .25/.50, I'd raise right now. Slow-play is almost never a good idea at low limits, IMHO, enough people chase draws that you might as well charge full price for them to do so. If CO is tight and drawing to the flush (rather than playing an A-something hand) then the only way he's putting even a single bet in on the river is if he hits, whereas if you raise the turn he'll get something like 5.5-1 odds for a flush so he could quite possibly call with the draw. If he's got A-decent kicker, then whether he sticks around depends on his read of you and how high his kicker is. Since you've got SB down as a maniac, chances are he'll see the river with any kind of hand, but even a maniac might fold the river if it misses - best to get his money in now, I think. But play it at a higher limit (say 5/10 or so), and slow play becomes a much better option since your opponents are more likely to balk at "another 20" than "another buck".

[custom36]

UglyJimStudly said:

At .25/.50, I'd raise right now. Slow-play is almost never a good idea at low limits, IMHO, enough people chase draws that you might as well charge full price for them to do so.

You want them to chase draws. You have the nut full house.

[Emptyeye]

Custom36 said:

UglyJimStudly said:

At .25/.50, I'd raise right now. Slow-play is almost never a good idea at low limits, IMHO, enough people chase draws that you might as well charge full price for them to do so.

You want them to chase draws. You have the nut full house.

That's his point precisely. People at micro-limit see only "Big draw!" and completely ignore important concepts such as "pot odds" and "acknowledging that the current configuration of the board could already have them drawing dead". In other words, they'll likely call two-cold to chase that draw as happily as they'll call a single bet.As an aside, his aces aren't, as someone said, "the nutz"--that would be pocket fives. Yeah, he's playing weak/tight if he's seriously worried about that, but as you've seen from my track record, I like being a prick and arguing semantics for basically its own sake.

[UglyJimStudly]

Custom36 said:

UglyJimStudly said:

At .25/.50, I'd raise right now. Slow-play is almost never a good idea at low limits, IMHO, enough people chase draws that you might as well charge full price for them to do so.

You want them to chase draws. You have the nut full house.

No kidding. And I want them to pay big every card they chase, because otherwise they have to hit on the river in order to pay me off. I'd rather get paid off by everybody who chases a flush than everybody who hits it.

[Emptyeye]

Something else to note: In this instance, even if you raise, your opponents are actually GETTING their pot odds to call (5.5:1 on a 4:1 shot) if they think a flush draw is live, so they actually SHOULD call two-cold if that's what they're on. The slowplay isn't terrible here, as calling may well confuse anyone who notes you've done nothing but show strength to this point (And make anyone with 5X think they're good in addition to hitting the flush), but raising is the "correct" play here if you think one or more people are on the draw, and probably even moreso if someone hung around with 5X and just tripped up.

[Whatever]

I would go for overcalls here but it looks like raising is correct because of the size of the pot for those on a flush draw.

[amarillotg]

i agree with uglyjimstudly. if it were at a higher limit say 3/6 i would probably slow down and go for overcalls but at .25/.50 with a maniac that probably just hit trips i am going to pump this thing for all its worth. even if we do raise the turn and lose the 2 player between us and the SB i still think the SB is going to help us cap this turn. he's a maniac that will bet any pair on the board (per the OP's description) so what makes us think he won't 3 bet trips?

[Wily]

amarillotg said:

i agree with uglyjimstudly. if it were at a higher limit say 3/6 i would probably slow down and go for overcalls but at .25/.50 with a maniac that probably just hit trips i am going to pump this thing for all its worth. even if we do raise the turn and lose the 2 player between us and the SB i still think the SB is going to help us cap this turn. he's a maniac that will bet any pair on the board (per the OP's description) so what makes us think he won't 3 bet trips?

Nice read of the situation!I smooth called in this case - CO called behind me.River was the 9 . SB bet, I raised, CO called, SB three-bet, I capped. call, call.SB/Maniac turns over 4-5. CO turned over Q 10 .I'm pretty sure CO wouldve followed us to the river with a flush draw that's hard to fold against most likely trips/AK. SB probably would've helped me cap the turn, any day, since he capped the river anyway. Great point about playing here at different limits - at 3/6 I'd probably more likely be against A-X and find a fold on the turn; or the flush draw may have wisened up and folded on the turn with the paired board.

[Emptyeye]

Nice avatar Wily.Anyway, it's interesting..the one other advantage to slowplaying the turn is that raising may cause warning bells to go off in the flush draw's head--"uh-oh, board's paired, this guy's still showing strength...is my flush draw even live anymore?" Of course, this being micro-limit, his thought process would likely be "Big draw + this guy betting = $$$ if I hit!"But yeah, at micro-limit, I probably raise it here.

[Makata]

Even at higher limits I still think this is a raise. As was said before, they will have correct odds to draw regardless of raise or not, and if SB is truly that wild, make him put in alot of money.My guess is SB truly thought his hand was good on the river since you hadn't shown a lot of aggression yet. I have a feeling if you had capped turn, he would have either check/called or bet/called river, but you might have gotten lucky and scooped another full 3 BB's from each.

[UglyJimStudly]

Emptyeye said:

Anyway, it's interesting..the one other advantage to slowplaying the turn is that raising may cause warning bells to go off in the flush draw's head--"uh-oh, board's paired, this guy's still showing strength...is my flush draw even live anymore?" Of course, this being micro-limit, his thought process would likely be "Big draw + this guy betting = $$$ if I hit!"

Switching to the flush draw's point of view - that should be the thought process anyway, absent a pretty specific read. If you drop every flush draw where the board pairs in a limit game, you'll leave a lot of money on the table. If you've got the flush draw, you can't quiver in fear every time the board pairs, because most of the time it just means you're up against two pair or trips. On the flip side, if another player is sufficiently timid that they lay down big draws when the board pairs, that can be exploited in a pretty obvious fashion.