9 replies to this topic

[All_In]

SB seemed like a pretty good, thinking player, he did have a big stack. about 10-15 hands before he had re-raised me all in pf when i raised a standard amount. kinda thought he may be re-stealing, but folded to the massive overbet.i had just beat the button for his stack the hand before, assumed he was steaming a bit.any thoughts/input greatly appreciated!---------------------------------------------------------------------------PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG+1 ($19.25)MP1 ($50.75)MP2 ($35.90)Hero (CO) ($46.60)Button ($50)SB ($50)BB ($61)UTG ($25.40)Preflop: Hero is CO with A , 6 4 folds, Hero calls $0.50, Button bets $2, SB raises to $5.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, SB raises to $19.50, 1 foldTotal pot: $22.50 | Rake: $0Results:SB didn't showOutcome: SB won $22.50

[KingJames]

1) Top off to 100bbs. If you stacked the btn for a stack the hand before, you were short stacking?2) I don't think there is EVER a time to open limp the CO, especially with A63) Limp/back-4betting is lol-strong so if he practically 5-bets instead of shoving it's going to be a monster a lot more than a re-steal4) A player who slams 100bbs as a 3bet vs a normal open is probably not a good/thinking opponent. And he doesn't have a big-stack he has 100bbs.What we have here, imo, is fancy play syndrome. You seem to have flawed fundamentals and I would work on shoring those up, playing tight agressive and not limp/back-4bet bluffing A6.Also, if you are short-stacking, poker is rather simple and mathematical. Even in this spot it's mathematical.ev= What you win when you shove and he folds * % that he folds + what you win when you shove and he calls (ev calc) - what you lose when you shove and he calls (your stack)... you just need to figure out (estimate) what percentage of the time he folds, what his range is when he calls and boom, ev calc

[fighter]

KingJames, on Wednesday, October 26th, 2011, 1:37 PM, said:

1) Top off to 100bbs. If you stacked the btn for a stack the hand before, you were short stacking?2) I don't think there is EVER a time to open limp the CO, especially with A63) Limp/back-4betting is lol-strong so if he practically 5-bets instead of shoving it's going to be a monster a lot more than a re-steal4) A player who slams 100bbs as a 3bet vs a normal open is probably not a good/thinking opponent. And he doesn't have a big-stack he has 100bbs.What we have here, imo, is fancy play syndrome. You seem to have flawed fundamentals and I would work on shoring those up, playing tight agressive and not limp/back-4bet bluffing A6.Also, if you are short-stacking, poker is rather simple and mathematical. Even in this spot it's mathematical.ev= What you win when you shove and he folds * % that he folds + what you win when you shove and he calls (ev calc) - what you lose when you shove and he calls (your stack)... you just need to figure out (estimate) what percentage of the time he folds, what his range is when he calls and boom, ev calc

Agree with everything here. I am still going to repeat most of what he said though because it really needs repeating. limping in the CO is bad. Best case scenario is that everyone folds and the BB checks a hand like 94o, 28o, J3o and a million other hands that would have folded. Those hands now have a chance of making quads and a boat and winning a pot off you they never should have been involved in. It also lets someone raise you here. It is like facing a 3 bet only they didn't have to risk much money and you are in an even worse spot because you are less likely to have a premium hand. Sure you could have AA or KK, but you won't be limping every time so you will have it less likely to have it then if you just open raised to 3x. Which bring me to the next point, limping here with a6 mean you have to limp AA or KK sometimes, which means that BB gets to see a free flop sometimes, now he is winning a medium or large sized pot from you with 73o, T2o, 38o when he spikes his boat or quads. Sure you are a great player who can get away from AA, however when the flop comes 33J , 27K, 444, when are you going to fold? If you are not calling down with AA then what are you calling down with? going to let him run over you and wait for a good hand. Congratulations you are now someone who limps bad hands and waits for trips. Auto top up to 100bb. If you are not rolled to play 25nl then move down, if you don't feel comfortable playing a 100bb stack then move down and practice, if you don't want to learn how to play a 100bb stack then buy in much shorter and play the short stack tables. Read this guide. While it is aimed at 6max players, it is mainly about the fundamentals of cash game poker online. http://www.gamblings...s/2p2NL6max.pdfAlso LOL at him steaming over doubling up someone who has less then 50bb. That would never happen. If he even blinks then he wasn't good to begin with so steaming is not giving you an advantage. 50bb swings means next to nothing to practically everyone who doesn't buy in for 50bb.

[Ninja Ace]

[All_In]

thanks guys, appreciate the input. it's been a while since i've played and knew my fundamentals (what little i had) had deteriorated.i am also trying to become better at cash games...nice point about not limping from the CO, but won't people assume u r stealing with a raise? i thought i read that limping on the button can be good these days because everyone expects a raise, is it different from the CO, or is my info now obsolete/not valid to begin with?i bought in for 20. i know that's short, it's what my friends and i do when we play against each other w/ .25/.50 blinds, so i was a bit more comfortable with it. i am not rolled for these limits, just taking a shot.pretty sure the B was steaming, even with the $$ involved. i assumed that the SB would also think this way, so he would raise to win pf. that's why i raised the SB. i guess it was fancy play syndrome, i was close to shoving before i came to my senses.i'll look at that pdf, thanks, and thanks all again (even picard)!

[mtdesmoines]

Ninja Ace, on Wednesday, October 26th, 2011, 10:09 AM, said:

[fighter]

All_In, on Friday, October 28th, 2011, 12:51 AM, said:

thanks guys, appreciate the input. it's been a while since i've played and knew my fundamentals (what little i had) had deteriorated.i am also trying to become better at cash games...nice point about not limping from the CO, but won't people assume u r stealing with a raise? i thought i read that limping on the button can be good these days because everyone expects a raise, is it different from the CO, or is my info now obsolete/not valid to begin with?i bought in for 20. i know that's short, it's what my friends and i do when we play against each other w/ .25/.50 blinds, so i was a bit more comfortable with it. i am not rolled for these limits, just taking a shot.pretty sure the B was steaming, even with the $$ involved. i assumed that the SB would also think this way, so he would raise to win pf. that's why i raised the SB. i guess it was fancy play syndrome, i was close to shoving before i came to my senses.i'll look at that pdf, thanks, and thanks all again (even picard)!

Never read anyone advocating a button limp as optimal.That is the beautiful thing about raising the button. They know your stealing, you know they know, you are stealing. However there is so little they can do about it. Position is just so powerful. It is the basis of reg wars. You raise light so they 3 bet light. They 3bet light so you defend light and float or bluff raise flop cbets. or you 4bet light. They shove over 4 bets light, you call light. So you are both doing things light, The major difference in all this is, (1) they have to place money into the pot at the start 100% of the time. (2) you are always in position. Don't be worried about them knowing you are raising light. Chances are they know and they also know there is little they can do about it. The regs will eventually start to test you with light 3bets, but that is poker.My range for raising the button in an unopened pot. 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,65s,54s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o,87o,76o or 42% of all hands dealt. However if they don't fight back then I will just keep adding hands until I'm playing all suited cards and all unsuited connecting cards, or 70% of hands. If they do start fighting back, I'll remove some hands from the 42% and start 4 betting and calling 3bets lighter. Also they are now playing more hands out of position which in my opinion is going to be worth more then the blinds most days. Don't play 42% of hands if you don't feel comfortable but Don't be afraid of them knowing you are going to be playing light in a position, just do it and adjust if they don't take it sitting down.

[trystero]

Quote

That is the beautiful thing about raising the button.They know your stealing, you know they know, you are stealing. However there is so little they can do about it. Position is just so powerful.

being in position is like being the pitcher in baseball. you just have a tremendous advantage by virtue of your role. you could take two equivalent baseball players, identical in overall talent, athleticism, concentration, and the one who is pitcher will win over 50% of their contests just because of the bias in pitching. it's the same thing in poker. just accept that when you're out of position, you cannot play as well as you would in position; and when you're in position, you have an advantage that you absolutely don't want to pass up unless you absolutely have to. like fighter, I've never heard that limping the button is a good play. maybe in a hyperaggro plo game?

[SuperJon]

The ONLY time I currently limp on the button, is when I'm limping behind a huge fish that NEVER FOLDS post flop, and it's generally with more speculative hands.

[KingJames]

+1s all aroundlimping behind fish is goot, open limping in the CO or button is def not