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Atheist Are Brain Damaged


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#41 vbnautilus

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 10:43 PM

View PostTactical Bear, on Sunday, October 2nd, 2011, 9:38 PM, said:

You know I don't have a kid, right?
Next you'll say you're not in jail either. There are so many different ways to be smart. Boiling down all the various ways the mind can excel into IQ is fairly futile. Many christians are smart -- including BG. I mean the thing he does on here, whatever it is, is pretty masterful. But there is a certain kind of reasoning ability that is ultimately incompatible with formal religion (by which I mean the specific tenets of fundamentalist christianity, judaism, islam, etc. as distinguished from the varieties of pantheistic/mysterious/god-is-the-universe spiritualities). People who have that ability either 1) reject formal religion or 2) suppress this aspect of their mind temporarily or permanently. This guy is a good example of the conflict that occurs when that kind of suppression has taken place. This is the kind of reasoning that happens to be good for science -- the practice of figuring out the truth -- which is why we get such a different breakdown of religious belief among scientists compared with the general population: Posted Image

#42 speedz99

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 04:59 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Sunday, October 2nd, 2011, 7:00 PM, said:

( Also I didn't actually read the link, just the title, but that's good enough for most of my investigations, so its good enough here )
Well, at least you admitted something in here.

View PostTactical Bear, on Sunday, October 2nd, 2011, 8:38 PM, said:

You know I don't have a kid, right?
How would I know that?
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#43 Balloon guy

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 06:16 AM

View PostTactical Bear, on Sunday, October 2nd, 2011, 9:31 PM, said:

I suppose my point is: "What is VoxDay trying to say?" The way he framed his point was disingenuous -- the "MENSA" and "GENIUS" bars were meant to make the difference between 103 (atheist) and 100 (average) look trifling. He was also offering evidence that atheists are smarter than theists, which just seems... I don't know, backwards? Silly? Perhaps the point was, "There is not a statistically significant difference between the IQs of Theists and Atheists." But I don't think so. I don't think you do either, BG. If that really was his point, why didn't he include the Theist IQ? Or some error bars? It was a clumsy attempt to reject a null hypothesis that reflected poorly on VoxDay.I'm really not sure if Atheists are smarter than Theists -- gun to my head, I'd say yes, but I can't prove that, and even if I could it wouldn't mean anything -- but that slide was both misleading AND backwards.
The point was to counter the claim made by many that atheist are smart.

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I'm also curious (about whether I'm walking into a trap/joke, and also about relevance), but I'd ask around. I'd start on the periphery, asking the least grief-stricken about the woman, attempting to ascertain who she was, her relationship to my friend and his sister, and go from there. Funerals are grave affairs, but if I thought I met a woman who was perfect for me, the gravity of the situation wouldn't stop me in my tracks or anything. I'd do my best to not seem like a tail-chasing slut-hound, but I'd learn about her. If she seemed perfect for me, I'd pursue her. Who wouldn't?
This was more of a joke than a question because the question was invented by psychologist to determine if a person is a psychopath.The correct psychopath response is to kill his friend so there will be another funeral with similar people coming.

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I expected to see about what I saw, but seeing it has value. I never would have clicked it if I hadn't been in the religion forum in the first place. It would've been imprudent to discuss religion with BG without reading the anti-atheist powerpoint presentation in his signature...
I wouldn't say anti-atheist.It is a response to the current atheist 'best selling' books, it was defensive, not offensive.
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#44 speedz99

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:25 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 6:16 AM, said:

This was more of a joke than a question because the question was invented by psychologist to determine if a person is a psychopath.The correct psychopath response is to kill his friend so there will be another funeral with similar people coming.
I feel like even psychopaths are aware enough of social norms to not give that answer, even if he was thinking it.Edit: http://www.allofthec...sychopath-test/Oh, well that's stupid. They don't have to come up with the answer themselves, they just have to recognize the logic presented. And I feel like the answer would be obvious to most people, not just psychopaths. Maybe that means I'm a psychopath. I'm hungry.
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#45 Dread Aidan

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 08:03 AM

View PostTactical Bear, on Sunday, October 2nd, 2011, 9:38 PM, said:

You know I don't have a kid, right?
Yes.

#46 Dubey

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 09:18 AM

edit, nm

#47 Tactical Bear

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 09:59 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 10:16 AM, said:

The point was to counter the claim made by many that atheist are smart.
It was a poor attempt to refute that claim, then.

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 10:16 AM, said:

This was more of a joke than a question because the question was invented by psychologist to determine if a person is a psychopath.The correct psychopath response is to kill his friend so there will be another funeral with similar people coming.
Holy shit, who falls for that? Worst. Psychopath. Ever.

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 10:16 AM, said:

I wouldn't say anti-atheist.It is a response to the current atheist 'best selling' books, it was defensive, not offensive.
I'm pretty sure Vox is anti- a lot of things. From the little I've read -- and please keep in mind, I've read very little -- he's hostile towards science (or at least professional science), among other things. I rarely take part in these discussions, because both sides have developed, and use casually, language that is designed to be dismissive and inflammatory. Nobody, not Vox not Dawkins not Ben Stein not anyone in the public eye, does anything except preach to the listeners already on his side of the aisle. Everyone involved in the public debate is simply rallying his base. Some are worse than others, and I want to be perfectly clear that I am in no way excluding those on my side: atheists can be incredibly smug and self-congratulatory. I would love to talk about stuff like this without everyone attaching so much pride to the discussion. Everyone is so concerned with winning that actual discourse is rejected in favor of pithy insults and circle-jerking or auto-fellatio. There are so many situations where I see an argument presented and think to myself, "There is no way he honestly believes that. He's just trying to be clever!" Everyone is so terrified of giving up any ground at all -- of conceding even a single point or admitting, "Hmmm, I don't know" -- that we end up digging trenches and fighting a war of attrition. But that's true of everything. If you give an inch, there will always be someone there to take it and proclaim victory.But Science, though: Science is good.PS: The original point I made regarding the utilitarianism = psychopathy link posted by BG still stands. Wanna take a crack at it, BG?
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#48 Tactical Bear

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 10:00 AM

View Postspeedz99, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 8:59 AM, said:

How would I know that?
I never talked about what happened with that? I would have sworn...
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#49 speedz99

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 04:00 PM

View PostTactical Bear, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 10:00 AM, said:

I never talked about what happened with that? I would have sworn...
I dunno, I don't think so. Unless cryptic hints count as talking about it.Maybe I'm wrong and JJJ can point me to the story.I'm coming off as somewhat confrontational, I think. Which is accurate...I enjoyed reading stories about your life, and am bitter about my loss of that occasional amusement. It maybe unfair, but, you know, that's the way I feel about it, Mister.
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#50 Balloon guy

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:50 PM

View PostTactical Bear, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 10:59 AM, said:

PS: The original point I made regarding the utilitarianism = psychopathy link posted by BG still stands. Wanna take a crack at it, BG?
Your post:

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From the same article, in the concluding paragraph

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While some might be tempted to conclude that these findings undermine utilitarianism as an ethical theory, Prof. Bartels explained that he and his co-author have a different interpretation: "Although the study does not resolve the ethical debate, it points to a flaw in the widely-adopted use of sacrificial dilemmas to identify optimal moral judgment. These methods fail to distinguish between people who endorse utilitarian moral choices because of underlying emotional deficits (like those captured by our measures of psychopathy and Machiavellianism) and those who endorse them out of genuine concern for the welfare of others." In short, if scientists' methods cannot identify a difference between the morality of a utilitarian philosopher who sacrifices her own interest for the sake of others, and a manipulative con artist who cares little about the feelings and welfare of anyone but himself, then perhaps better methods are needed.
All this study says is: "Based on the questions we asked in the experiment we designed, we are unable to tell if a respondent that chooses to push one man in front of a train is doing it because (a) he is trying to save 5 lives OR (b) he just really likes pushing people in front of trains." Seriously. Read the text of the article. You can see how easy it would for that to be true, right?Let's use as an example the passengers on board the 4th plane on 9/11. They fought back against the terrorists, and very likely attempted to kill them, knowing full well it would mean their own deaths. Maybe one of those guys just really likes fighting and killing. Or maybe one of them was excited about getting to the controls and crashing the plane into the ground. How can you distinguish between an act of genuine heroism and an act of wanton violence?The examples often used to illustrate optimal moral behavior -- the "kill one to save ten?" hypotheticals -- are, according to this study, flawed.
I kind of lean towards your previous contention that these types of studies are kind of dumb, that generally people on both sides are roughly the same.Given that your home life, your school professor, your drug use etc can all contribute much more than your IQ any of these studies used by either side are just blatant attempts to use propaganda techniques to further an agenda.I admit I have an agenda with regards to promoting my beliefs; the salvation of another person's soul. My motivation for posting this link was honestly exactly what I pointed to Speedz, a place to store a silly story/study that favors my side for the next time I get linked to one that favors the other side and I am supposed to hide my head in shame for being associated with stupid people.I question the agenda of the other side. Especially the ones like crow ( who no longer posts here) who had over 2,000 posts 99% in religion just to tell anyone who posted anything positive about Christianity that they were wrong. As I find their agenda offensive to anyone with a brain, I go out of my way to keep them busy reading things and never read any of their links more than a title to keep them busy with their agenda, looking for openings to bring light to their dark way of thinking.So I don't know that I can really argue with your conclusion, unless it was to say that the circumstances would answer these questions enough to fill in any questions most of the time?
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#51 Balloon guy

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 08:00 PM

View Postvbnautilus, on Sunday, October 2nd, 2011, 11:43 PM, said:

Next you'll say you're not in jail either. There are so many different ways to be smart. Boiling down all the various ways the mind can excel into IQ is fairly futile. Many christians are smart -- including BG. I mean the thing he does on here, whatever it is, is pretty masterful. But there is a certain kind of reasoning ability that is ultimately incompatible with formal religion (by which I mean the specific tenets of fundamentalist christianity, judaism, islam, etc. as distinguished from the varieties of pantheistic/mysterious/god-is-the-universe spiritualities). People who have that ability either 1) reject formal religion or 2) suppress this aspect of their mind temporarily or permanently. This guy is a good example of the conflict that occurs when that kind of suppression has taken place. This is the kind of reasoning that happens to be good for science -- the practice of figuring out the truth -- which is why we get such a different breakdown of religious belief among scientists compared with the general population: Posted Image
I once worked with a kid who had a degree in anthropology who worked at the construction site I was working when I was operating a dozer. More than once I saved his life because he would literally wander out into the fill when loaded scrapers hauling 32 cubic yards of dirt at speeds of 25+ mph were dumping dry loads that created dust that obscured visibility. I would move my dozer to protect him while he looked at rocks with his back to the scrapers looking for fossils.He also once told me the tooth I found was a Saber Tooth Tiger fang. Turned out it was a camel tooth and he had it upside down.Anyway..he was a scientist.So your contention that you can cherry pick a profession and compare it to everyone else, is so silly as to be beneath you...a scientist.Besides, I thought you guys were selling that 98% of scientist were global warmers? How can 33% of the scientist be declaratively smarter than the rest and still buy global warming hoax?
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#52 speedz99

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 05:40 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 8:00 PM, said:

He also once told me the tooth I found was a Saber Tooth Tiger fang. Turned out it was a camel tooth and he had it upside down.
Where were you working that would have a camel tooth lying around? That seems even less likely than a saber tooth tiger fang if it was somewhere in this country. I'm not asking because that excuses the jackass anthropologist...wait a minute. Was he an anthropologist, or was he a kid with a degree in anthropology who worked construction?

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, October 3rd, 2011, 8:00 PM, said:

Anyway..he was a scientist.So your contention that you can cherry pick a profession and compare it to everyone else, is so silly as to be beneath you...a scientist.
I don't think vb's argument was that every single scientist is sooper dooper smart. In fact, approximately 33% are crazy!
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#53 Balloon guy

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:20 AM

View Postspeedz99, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 6:40 AM, said:

Where were you working that would have a camel tooth lying around? That seems even less likely than a saber tooth tiger fang if it was somewhere in this country. I'm not asking because that excuses the jackass anthropologist...wait a minute. Was he an anthropologist, or was he a kid with a degree in anthropology who worked construction?
Excavating a hill to make a road often attracted anthropologist to look for fossils. I almost discovered a full skeleton of a seal at an elevation of about 2,500 at least 40 below the surface. ( Almost because I saw the rock with the skeleton during a pass with my dozer, and planned on checking it out next pass, but some idiot anthropologist saw it first. ( no money for discovering ))This guy was an anthropologist.

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I don't think vb's argument was that every single scientist is sooper dooper smart. In fact, approximately 33% are crazy!
VB's argument depends on this contention.
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#54 speedz99

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:50 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 9:20 AM, said:

VB's argument depends on this contention.
Scientists being more intelligent on average is not the same as every scientist being more intelligent than average. Plus a bunch of other stuff I wrote but deleted because it didn't make much sense.
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#55 Balloon guy

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:17 AM

View Postspeedz99, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 10:50 AM, said:

Scientists being more intelligent on average is not the same as every scientist being more intelligent than average.
It is when you lump them all together and pretend their numbers are equal to the rest of the population.What's to stop say..a guy like me, from claiming that the stupid scientist are on the right side of his graph?I'll tell you what....NOTHING....So I'm saying it.

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Plus a bunch of other stuff I wrote but deleted because it didn't make much sense.
Which is different from the stuff in here how?
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#56 speedz99

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:15 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 11:17 AM, said:

It is when you lump them all together and pretend their numbers are equal to the rest of the population.What's to stop say..a guy like me, from claiming that the stupid scientist are on the right side of his graph?
There's some confusion here. What was the point of your anthropologist story? That some scientists aren't smart? And you think that vb would disagree with that or that his argument hinges on every scientist being smart?

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 11:17 AM, said:

Which is different from the stuff in here how?
Oh please, the anthropologist could have done just as well with that setup.
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#57 vbnautilus

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:42 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 12:17 PM, said:

It is when you lump them all together and pretend their numbers are equal to the rest of the population.
The point was that they were not the same as the rest of the population. What? I don't know what you mean by cherry-picked. I picked this profession specifically because it benefits from a certain kind of intelligence. And trust me, there are some pretty dumb scientists.

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What's to stop say..a guy like me, from claiming that the stupid scientist are on the right side of his graph?
Results. The progress of science itself.

#58 Balloon guy

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:23 PM

View Postvbnautilus, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 1:42 PM, said:

The point was that they were not the same as the rest of the population. What? I don't know what you mean by cherry-picked. I picked this profession specifically because it benefits from a certain kind of intelligence. And trust me, there are some pretty dumb scientists.
You know the implications of that 'poll' is slanted towards a certain meaning that doesn't bear out to reality.

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Results. The progress of science itself.
Should we discuss which group of people, atheist or Christians, have done more for the advancements of all the sciences?Cause I can start here
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#59 vbnautilus

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:21 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, October 4th, 2011, 10:23 PM, said:

You know the implications of that 'poll' is slanted towards a certain meaning that doesn't bear out to reality.
How so? You really don't think as a group scientists are less likely to believe in the christian god? It certainly fits my experience. When I meet other scientists it is basically assumed that this stuff is not believed.

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Should we discuss which group of people, atheist or Christians, have done more for the advancements of all the sciences?Cause I can start here
Just make sure you finish here: Posted Image

#60 Balloon guy

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:45 AM

View Postvbnautilus, on Wednesday, October 5th, 2011, 7:21 AM, said:

How so? You really don't think as a group scientists are less likely to believe in the christian god? It certainly fits my experience. When I meet other scientists it is basically assumed that this stuff is not believed.
Like you meet other scientists in your MRI experiments...

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Just make sure you finish here: Posted Image
You know what? I'm going to ignore that the scientist of the day were the ones that told the church that Galileo was wrong, and Galileo, who was a Christian, used the Bible to defend himself.I'm going to ignore that and take 1 name off my lists of thousands of Christians who basically started all scientific disciplines.Of course you do not get to add him to your side...cause he's still a Christian and such.
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