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Bottom Straight On The Turn


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#1 bbgun

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 07:20 AM

Live $1-$2 game...limited experience with both opponents. Hero MP $309Villain #1 Cutoff $102Villain #2 Button $500+Preflop: Two limpers from EP, Hero calls w 8d9d, Cutoff calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks. Pot $14.Flop Js-10c-3hSB bets $10, folds to Hero who calls $10, Cutoff calls, Button calls. Pot $54 ($47 after rake...yes, it is $5 + $2).Turn QsSB checks, Hero bets $32, Cutoff raises all-in to $90, Button calls $90, SB folds, Hero ???1. Thoughts on pre-flop and flop?2. Normally I would not be concerned about A-K showing up here, but the button had shown down A-K twice after limping pre-flop. He was very aggressive post-flop, however. He also made the turn call very quickly, took less than 5 seconds. Definitely did not put the cutoff on A-K, looked more like 2 pair, maybe bottom set.3. Fold (unlikely but still an option), Call the $90, or jam?
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#2 KingJames

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 08:44 AM

Limp fine is pre imo. Flop is also fine as we have implied odds and the board is rainbow, so we've got all clean outs.On the turn I'd bet $40, but that's just nit-picking. I'd also jam and expect to be called by some combo draws like KXss and pair+oesd and then of course value hands like sets, two pair and better straight. In limped pots we can discount AK a bit and K9 is a meh cooler. But I don't fold here ever and get as much money in as I can to crush the combo draws
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#3 Ninja Ace

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 11:03 AM

James you're missing a major size issue.. the jam is a 100+ BB choice. Not sure i like raising here tbh. Sure, there are draws, and we'd like to "price them out"... but i can think of few ranges where jamming here would be more profitable than calling. If this were a raised pot I think we could discount the frequency of K-9 as often... but being limped, added with the description about AK, and the fact that it's now a situation with a "protected pot"... I think we are forced to call and then follow up with a check/difficult decision on river.
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#4 Acid_Knight

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 12:37 PM

This is a trivial jam. We are not that deep. He can certainly have worse hands and any hand he plays like this, be it a set or a draw, two pair or a better straight is never getting folded. Presumably there isn't going to be an AK out there, so if he's got K9 - oh well we got coolered. Just jam, get max value out of whatever his hand is and don't worry if we happen to be behind.

#5 potatoman

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 04:34 PM

Jamming here should be profitable.I don't like the alternative if it involves me making a difficult decision on the river. I mean, why am I playing 89 if I'm not going to stick it in here?

#6 answer20

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:01 PM

Lets see if I can stir the pot on this hand again. If this hand comes up where I play ... it is a fold some of the time depending on who I am facing in the hand. We have all been told, and regularily ignore, to play the player, not the cards. I see the math ... $58 into $266 (4.6-1) to call AND I can actually turn a profit if I only win the side pot IF I can get the button to call my all-in. What are we hoping for here? A River card of 8 or below that is not a spade!! ... all other cards can complete any combination of full house, flush or higher straight that can beat us. Even a K, which is the only card that actaully improves our hand can be a loser if someone is on a nut flush draw.Obviously I don't want to fold here, but with really no chance for improving our hand I want to at least think about it. I can call here if I am fairly certain that the BB will fire any River, even a blank. I would also consider a min raise to force the side pot and then deal with a spade bluff if I have to. I don't really want to jam here as the button has showed an ability to slow play. I want to see how he reacts to the min raise (which only has to be $60 here, not that expensive and we still have $140 behind). It will encourage the button to pay more for his draw as we have a made hand, but could be behind the CO at the same time. This may be way to conservative, but with the way this hand has played out ... and for my comfort level with a 1-2 pot playing like a 2-5 pot all of a sudden ... I will think about it a bit, which will make me look weaker than I really am to the button if I do take further action.I think the real issue here is on the Flop, we have the low end open-ender on a rainbow board. Lets fire a semi-bluff raise to thin the herd a bit here ... $25 will do just fine. We then find out if the CO really has a hand and normally any AK or Ax suited will fold to this bet if we are really that worried about it from the button or anywhere else. Are you really calling $10 into $24 looking for a 7? The Q gives us a made hand, but look at the trouble we are in when it does come. Even with implied odds you are calling $10 into $44 and that is not a good price for your 'best' friend the 7. If you still get your callers, then you have now built the pot AND can now check the Turn (to hide your made hand since an overcard hit) to the CO and spent $7 less dollars doing so. You are now set up for a check raise if button folds or check/call to see a cheaper River card.What do you think? Of course I will know what you think if you ask me where I play cuz you want to play with me ... !! I show quite a few big lay downs when I play and most of them turn out to be the right choice ... regardless of the math ... see you at the tables.




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