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9-9 In Bb Flopping A Set


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#1 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 02:35 PM

$2/2 NLHE live, I'm in Seat 5 in BB with $135, and have built up what looks like a pretty tight image because I've been getting complete crap for a while and have hardly played a hand. Villain is Seat 3 with ~$400 OTB, and seems like a decently strong player.PRE-FLOP: I pick up :jh :4h About 6 limps for $2 to me in BB. If there were fewer people in, I probably try to raise, but I'm really not looking to bloat the pot and play OOP against what's likely to be at least 3 callers to a raise pre-flop.FLOP: :D :club: :3h SB checks, I check, checks around to Seat 1, who bets $10, Seat 2 calls, Seat 3 OTB raises to $25, Seat 4 in SB folds, I just call, and the action folds around.This was a pretty aggressive table, so I figured there was no chance it was getting checked around when I checked myself. Then I face this bet and then the small raise by Villain. I'm thinking he doesn't have a set because he'd raise Jacks or Tens pre-flop for sure, but J-T or J-9 are real possibilities. He probably raises K-Q pre-flop (I think), and would have limped Q-8 or 8-7 pre-flop. A-J, K-J, Q-J are possible too I guess, though A-J probably gets raised pre-flop. Anyway, after a bet, call, and raise, I really wasn't sure what to do and just ended up calling. Thoughts?TURN: :D :ts :qh :5c I check, Seat 3 bet $25, I check/raise AI to $108 total...So I wanted to go ahead and protect my hand against pair/SD hands and get value from two pair hands, but is this too reckless because of the chances that I'm facing a straight here?I felt pretty lost during this one, so looking for help.

#2 potatoman

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 03:15 PM

Raise preflop. Playing out of position is tricky. Even more so when you're up against 6 opponents who could have almost any two cards.Raise for value, to play against less opponents and to get a better read on your opponents so you can make better decisions later on. Also, have more money in front of you. As played, I don't understand why you wouldn't protect your hand on the flop, but then you stuck it in on the turn, with only one card to come. If you think you have a good chance of being ahead here, you should try to get as much money in on the flop as possible and hopefully, win the pot right there. Even if you get it allin on the flop and find yourself up against a str8, you still have a chance to hit your boat. If you felt uncomfortable on the flop, fold your set and make a better decision next time, by raising preflop.Just my two cents.

#3 XXEddie

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:21 PM

View PostSwift_Psycho, on Tuesday, August 9th, 2011, 4:35 PM, said:

$2/2 NLHE live, I'm in Seat 5 in BB with $135, and have built up what looks like a pretty tight image because I've been getting complete crap for a while and have hardly played a hand. Villain is Seat 3 with ~$400 OTB, and seems like a decently strong player.Again, addon. 67.5bbs is not enough. PRE-FLOP: I pick up :jh :4h About 6 limps for $2 to me in BB. If there were fewer people in, I probably try to raise, but I'm really not looking to bloat the pot and play OOP against what's likely to be at least 3 callers to a raise pre-flop.Pound it. I'm talking the $15-$20 range. 99 is by far the best hand here. I understand you don't want to play a pot OOP against multiple people, but it happens in live games where nobody folds. The big raise will get some/most people to muck while also getting people to make a really bad call which is +EV for you!FLOP: :D :club: :3h SB checks, I check, checks around to Seat 1, who bets $10, Seat 2 calls, Seat 3 OTB raises to $25, Seat 4 in SB folds, I just call, and the action folds around.This was a pretty aggressive table, so I figured there was no chance it was getting checked around when I checked myself. Then I face this bet and then the small raise by Villain. I'm thinking he doesn't have a set because he'd raise Jacks or Tens pre-flop for sure, but J-T or J-9 are real possibilities. He probably raises K-Q pre-flop (I think), and would have limped Q-8 or 8-7 pre-flop. A-J, K-J, Q-J are possible too I guess, though A-J probably gets raised pre-flop. Anyway, after a bet, call, and raise, I really wasn't sure what to do and just ended up calling. Thoughts?I guess with your check preflop, I like going for the check/raise against such a big field. I think you need to be raising this flop. Hell, you only have $133 behind. Shove. Make it look like you have a weaker hand and are trying to pick it up here. If you are behind, you are getting stacked anyway, but this will help get make value from 2 pair/Jx/QT type hands.TURN: :D :ts :qh :5c I check, Seat 3 bet $25, I check/raise AI to $108 total...So I wanted to go ahead and protect my hand against pair/SD hands and get value from two pair hands, but is this too reckless because of the chances that I'm facing a straight here?I like your thought process if it was on the flop. As played the CRAI is standard. I felt pretty lost during this one, so looking for help.


#4 KingJames

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:23 PM

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#5 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 05:20 PM

What's the smallest pair you'll raise out of the BB with against a bunch of limpers? Sevens? Eights?

#6 KingJames

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:19 PM

View PostSwift_Psycho, on Tuesday, August 9th, 2011, 7:20 PM, said:

What's the smallest pair you'll raise out of the BB with against a bunch of limpers? Sevens? Eights?
Depends on the table. At a table that is very showdown bound I would cut it off at 9s. At a tighter where I suspect less players to the flop and a c-bet to work a higher percentage, I'd loosen it and include 8s and 7s
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#7 Ninja Ace

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 06:28 PM

Not raising pre or leading out on the flop is pretty bad imo
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#8 MaxStPolish

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:04 PM

^^^^ Disagree w/ both of the above.Am I the only one okay with not snap raising PF?I think if you do raise you need to put out a substantial 2x pot bet to like 25 or so otherwise you are just bloating the pot, expecting to get 3-4 callers and set mining at a bloated price making it almost unattractive for you to do just that, OOP.Personally in a live 1/2 (or 2/2) game I'm absolutely fine checking my option and playing 99 as a premium set mining holding and reevaluating after the flop. Don't get me wrong I'm not pleased to be checking 99 PF, but I feel its the best situation here. We aren't deep enough to reasonably get away from 99 post flop if we make my above sized raise, unless we give up on big flops, etc.I get that the consensus is raising for VALUE here, not the pot bloating that I'm discussing above. I just don't see the value in a 5x raise here because you are typically getting 3-4 callers at least, and that doesn't do you a whole world of favors.I think you are pretty much set/screwed post flop based on your stack size. I'm okay checking flop, but I hate the call button here. Lets isolate or price people into bad calls. I like a smallish 3 bet of your own to like 55. While it sort of polarizes your range it will create a SPR < 1 so you are wholly commited, though your bad opponents may not know this. On that turn you are obviously getting it in. I hate to just blindly have a hand and say "oh, its a cooler, i couldn't fold", but in this hand, I don't think there's a world of other options save for a slew of in game reads.

#9 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 09:28 AM

View PostMaxStPolish, on Tuesday, August 16th, 2011, 11:04 PM, said:

^^^^ Disagree w/ both of the above.Am I the only one okay with not snap raising PF?I think if you do raise you need to put out a substantial 2x pot bet to like 25 or so otherwise you are just bloating the pot, expecting to get 3-4 callers and set mining at a bloated price making it almost unattractive for you to do just that, OOP.Personally in a live 1/2 (or 2/2) game I'm absolutely fine checking my option and playing 99 as a premium set mining holding and reevaluating after the flop. Don't get me wrong I'm not pleased to be checking 99 PF, but I feel its the best situation here. We aren't deep enough to reasonably get away from 99 post flop if we make my above sized raise, unless we give up on big flops, etc.I get that the consensus is raising for VALUE here, not the pot bloating that I'm discussing above. I just don't see the value in a 5x raise here because you are typically getting 3-4 callers at least, and that doesn't do you a whole world of favors.I think you are pretty much set/screwed post flop based on your stack size. I'm okay checking flop, but I hate the call button here. Lets isolate or price people into bad calls. I like a smallish 3 bet of your own to like 55. While it sort of polarizes your range it will create a SPR < 1 so you are wholly commited, though your bad opponents may not know this. On that turn you are obviously getting it in. I hate to just blindly have a hand and say "oh, its a cooler, i couldn't fold", but in this hand, I don't think there's a world of other options save for a slew of in game reads.
Yeah, well 9-9 is right at the border for me, since I'm certainly checking 8-8 and raising T-T out of the BB. If I do raise 9-9, it would probably be to around $20. But yeah, your thinking is basically what was going through my head when I checked.Post-flop, I know I made a mistake. Checking the flop given my read (that there was little chance of it getting checked around because of the aggression of some of my opponents) I think is just fine, but I'm not really sure why I got tentative when the action came back around to me. I was originally planning to check/raise, but I guess I lost my nerve when faced with a bet, call, and raise. Which then doesn't really explain why I gained my nerve back on the turn if I was so nervous on the flop. So yeah, poorly played by me and I know that.Villain ended up with Q-8o, so a pre-flop raise may or may not have folded him out (he's the sort of player who's decent post-flop but likely to call a raise pre-flop if there's a few players in "for pot odds"). Post-flop, there was really no avoiding going broke I guess.

#10 XXEddie

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:29 PM

View PostMaxStPolish, on Tuesday, August 16th, 2011, 9:04 PM, said:

^^^^ Disagree w/ both of the above.Am I the only one okay with not snap raising PF?I think if you do raise you need to put out a substantial 2x pot bet to like 25 or so otherwise you are just bloating the pot, expecting to get 3-4 callers and set mining at a bloated price making it almost unattractive for you to do just that, OOP.Personally in a live 1/2 (or 2/2) game I'm absolutely fine checking my option and playing 99 as a premium set mining holding and reevaluating after the flop. Don't get me wrong I'm not pleased to be checking 99 PF, but I feel its the best situation here. We aren't deep enough to reasonably get away from 99 post flop if we make my above sized raise, unless we give up on big flops, etc.I get that the consensus is raising for VALUE here, not the pot bloating that I'm discussing above. I just don't see the value in a 5x raise here because you are typically getting 3-4 callers at least, and that doesn't do you a whole world of favors.I think you are pretty much set/screwed post flop based on your stack size. I'm okay checking flop, but I hate the call button here. Lets isolate or price people into bad calls. I like a smallish 3 bet of your own to like 55. While it sort of polarizes your range it will create a SPR < 1 so you are wholly commited, though your bad opponents may not know this. On that turn you are obviously getting it in. I hate to just blindly have a hand and say "oh, its a cooler, i couldn't fold", but in this hand, I don't think there's a world of other options save for a slew of in game reads.
Eh, I think is borderline. Certainly not a must raise, but there is merit in it. I would think TT is certainly a raise, no? So why is 99 such a simple check? Where is the line?

#11 XXEddie

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:34 PM

View PostSwift_Psycho, on Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 11:28 AM, said:

Yeah, well 9-9 is right at the border for me, since I'm certainly checking 8-8 and raising T-T out of the BB. If I do raise 9-9, it would probably be to around $20. But yeah, your thinking is basically what was going through my head when I checked.Post-flop, I know I made a mistake. Checking the flop given my read (that there was little chance of it getting checked around because of the aggression of some of my opponents) I think is just fine, but I'm not really sure why I got tentative when the action came back around to me. I was originally planning to check/raise, but I guess I lost my nerve when faced with a bet, call, and raise. Which then doesn't really explain why I gained my nerve back on the turn if I was so nervous on the flop. So yeah, poorly played by me and I know that.Villain ended up with Q-8o, so a pre-flop raise may or may not have folded him out (he's the sort of player who's decent post-flop but likely to call a raise pre-flop if there's a few players in "for pot odds"). Post-flop, there was really no avoiding going broke I guess.
Sound like you need to work on pairing the board.

#12 pokerinc

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:24 PM

1-2/2-2 games are so bizarre I really can't see raising pre-flop from the blind here, unless you're actually going to shove. Guys at my room limp huge and call wide. A forty dollar raise could see three callers and put you in a horrible spot post when any over hits. With 9-9 you have to dodge too much of the board to play well post-flop. That said, with 99 and that stack, you could make it 55 pre flop and put the other 80 in post.Pre-flop is going to get a lot of back and forth from the different camps, but I think there's only one flop play for you and that's a check-shove. You've got a bet and a raise in front and not much stack behind, get it in. There's plenty of cards that kill your action or your set on the turn, and you're not getting to show down for free, nor should. To me, this flop is always a check-shove in your spot.
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#13 Ninja Ace

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:50 AM

I'm not in the camp of "having to make a harder decision later means I should pass up on an obviously +EV spot"If people are willing to limp-call a raise as large as $40... we should be popping much wider than 9-9 herewe have a hand strong enough to be 3balling over an LP raise... strong enough to call an UTG raise... why are we afraid to raise in a limped pot?
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#14 SuperJon

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 10:09 AM

View PostNinja Ace, on Friday, August 19th, 2011, 12:50 PM, said:

we have a hand strong enough to be 3balling over an LP raise... strong enough to call an UTG raise... why are we afraid to raise in a limped pot?
Yes our hand is that strong preflop, but when we raise and get 3 or more callers, then I think the value of our hand diminishes quite a bit once we get to the flop. I would raise if I knew it would get me heads up, but if the table is playing so loose that I'm guaranteed to have a multiway pot, then I prefer a check.

#15 MaxStPolish

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 07:47 PM

View PostSuperJon, on Friday, August 19th, 2011, 1:09 PM, said:

Yes our hand is that strong preflop, but when we raise and get 3 or more callers, then I think the value of our hand diminishes quite a bit once we get to the flop. I would raise if I knew it would get me heads up, but if the table is playing so loose that I'm guaranteed to have a multiway pot, then I prefer a check.
Exactly.

#16 XXEddie

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:47 AM

View PostSuperJon, on Friday, August 19th, 2011, 12:09 PM, said:

Yes our hand is that strong preflop, but when we raise and get 3 or more callers, then I think the value of our hand diminishes quite a bit once we get to the flop. I would raise if I knew it would get me heads up, but if the table is playing so loose that I'm guaranteed to have a multiway pot, then I prefer a check.
If we made it around the $20 mark here I don't see us getting more than 1 or 2 callers at any random 1/2 or 2/2 live table. 200nl live games have a lot of limpers, but from what I've seen, make any raise over $15 or so, and you'll drastically thin the field and possibly even take it down there a lot.

#17 SuperJon

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:20 AM

View PostXXEddie, on Sunday, August 21st, 2011, 1:47 PM, said:

If we made it around the $20 mark here I don't see us getting more than 1 or 2 callers at any random 1/2 or 2/2 live table. 200nl live games have a lot of limpers, but from what I've seen, make any raise over $15 or so, and you'll drastically thin the field and possibly even take it down there a lot.
It all depends on the table. I raised TT in the BB last week to $30 and got 5 callers.

#18 answer20

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:26 AM

Classic comments from the low limit cash game!! You need to mix up your game some, but I think after being card dead and carrying the image described suggests that a raise pre-Flop would have been appropriate ... to $12 or $15 would have limited the field perhaps. But Villian being on the Button is going nowhere in my card room since there would have been at least 2 or 3 callers in front of him. You also want a decent sized pot if you do hit your set so you can bet out or check raise this Flop. This is a hugely dangerous board .... Great, we hit a set, but sadly the board is icy wet ... proceed with caution!!If you play slow pre-Flop, then play slow the whole hand ... changing gears on the Turn when a blank hits just tells him you are desperate. It is way better to check call it down and live with the results ... and you may still have some money left as he will put you all-in for $83 into $124+83 if a blank hits the river and then you can still fold if you want ... just bad luck that your set came on this kind of board.You are barely priced into putting your $133 into $207 after the Flop ... and you are REALLY not priced into a Turn shove at all if you are behind. This player raised the Flop after a bet and a call. That means he has something really good or he would have just smooth called. That is the whole key to this hand ... one has to wonder what the other 2 guys had that they couldn't call $15 into $74 after you called the Flop raise. You have described this player as 'decently strong'. Give respect, slow play and hope to suck out.If you have 2 or 3 buy-ins in your pocket, then take action on the Flop (not Turn) with a min re-raise, especially with others and the original bettor yet to act on Villian's raise. In this case here he is calling anyway ... again, just an unlucky board came out this time ... but you might as well try to build a pot (for your suck out in this case) by letting the other players put their money in bad. I have laid this down in a 3-way pot ... see my post about pocket 10s.Pre-Flop to $18+ might have taken down the pot of $12 for you and if you are borderline with a hand you should take it down right now rather than play the hand OOP and uncomfortable ... this is where you get burned more than not at the low limits. Better luck (board) next time ... see you at the tables.

#19 mtdesmoines

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 08:12 PM

I like the CRAI on the flop. Anything else is uncivilized.
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