55 replies to this topic

[mtdesmoines]

CaneBrain, on Monday, October 17th, 2011, 4:19 PM, said:

This happened in Florida.NEVER EVER EVER FOLD A FLOPPED SET IN A LIVE GAME IN FLORIDA.

[GOCUBSGO]

I wish I was good enough at poker to even consider folding a flopped set.

[mtdesmoines]

[quote name='GOCUBSGO' date='Tuesday, October 25th, 2011, 9:47 PM' post='3512925']I wish I was good enough at poker to [s]even consider folding[/s] get all the money in every time I flopped a set.

[imatstarbucks]

lol at all the responses. regardless of live or online. makes no difference. I agree the line is very odd, which can be confused as strong. But ive been in these spots before. and I've folded monsters.. (Why did i fold a monster) you ask??because I was playing without proper bankroll management. this is 1/2 NL. if OP showed up with a few hundred to play some poker. he is scared money. If OP has a 4k BR he is insta calling this flop./end thread.

[donk4life]

imatstarbucks, on Sunday, October 30th, 2011, 10:18 AM, said:

lol at all the responses. regardless of live or online. makes no difference. I agree the line is very odd, which can be confused as strong. But ive been in these spots before. and I've folded monsters.. (Why did i fold a monster) you ask??because I was playing without proper bankroll management. this is 1/2 NL. if OP showed up with a few hundred to play some poker. he is scared money. If OP has a 4k BR he is insta calling this flop./end thread.

you're an idiot

[imatstarbucks]

donk4life, on Sunday, October 30th, 2011, 9:59 AM, said:

you're an idiot

You obviously have no concept of reality. If you actually think what I said was wrong, you need to seriously re-examine your game.do you see why?

[bbgun]

imatstarbucks, on Sunday, October 30th, 2011, 11:18 AM, said:

lol at all the responses. regardless of live or online. makes no difference. I agree the line is very odd, which can be confused as strong. But ive been in these spots before. and I've folded monsters.. (Why did i fold a monster) you ask??because I was playing without proper bankroll management. this is 1/2 NL. if OP showed up with a few hundred to play some poker. he is scared money. If OP has a 4k BR he is insta calling this flop./end thread.

At the time, my bankroll was about $6K. I don't play much anymore because I deal in this room now. It wasn't about scared money, I have no problem putting all my chips in when I need to.

[CobaltBlue]

2/4 FRI raise to $12 in EP with $900 behind, CO (probably decent reg) flats, BB callsFlop :jhCheck, I bet $26, CO calls, BB foldsTurn :7dI bet $61, CO callsRiver :2cI bet $146, he banks all the way down and shoves for $390 total, I puke-fold

[Acid_Knight]

CobaltBlue, on Monday, December 12th, 2011, 7:02 PM, said:

2/4 FRI raise to $12 in EP with $900 behind, CO (probably decent reg) flats, BB callsFlop :jhCheck, I bet $26, CO calls, BB foldsTurn :7dI bet $61, CO callsRiver :2cI bet $146, he banks all the way down and shoves for $390 total, I puke-fold

He's repping exactly T9hh or AThh (I mean WTF do people ever slowplay on that board, especially for both the flop and turn?) and not raising those hands OTF is pretty horrible since so little of your value range wants to fold that flop and you probably don't barrel that texture with air a ton. He could even have a weirdly played KQ or some other value hand or even **gasp!** a missed draw or worse made hand that he's now turning into a bluff. Folding here seems really really REALLY bad if you are asking, especially getting better than 3-1.

[CobaltBlue]

Acid_Knight, on Monday, December 19th, 2011, 6:06 PM, said:

He's repping exactly T9hh or AThh (I mean WTF do people ever slowplay on that board, especially for both the flop and turn?) and not raising those hands OTF is pretty horrible since so little of your value range wants to fold that flop and you probably don't barrel that texture with air a ton. He could even have a weirdly played KQ or some other value hand or even **gasp!** a missed draw or worse made hand that he's now turning into a bluff. Folding here seems really really REALLY bad if you are asking, especially getting better than 3-1.

If he's flatting the flop and turn with KQ, it seems really strange for him to shove the river. Like, can he really expect to get value from many worse hands? The only value hand that I beat is a strange JJ. If he's bluffing, I'd expect he would shove faster than he did. It seemed like a classic, "time down to make hand look weak with the nuts" situation. There aren't too many air flush draws...which means he'd have to be turning a made hand into a bluff.It's close enough that if I had KK, I'd probably call (since it adds QQ as a value hand that I beat). If I had a decent read, I think I could call, but based on my limited reads (anonymous tables), he was probably a somewhat competent reg (he bought in for the max and hadn't done anything of strange note yet).It certainly pained me a lot, but I feel that of all the times that I've made this call in the past, I'm getting shown AT/T9 here like 80-90% of the time. If I'm shown those hands more than 75% of the time, it's a losing call.

[Acid_Knight]

I don't think you're ever going to be shown T9/AT more than 75% of the time the way this hand plays out. If the board is rainbow, I could see a reasonable case for it, but 3-1 is still a really good price.It doesn't matter that most of his FDs are combo draws like Q9hh, 89hh, T8hh, Axhh, he can't profitably call the river with any of them. Also your bet sizing does not encourage him to fold the turn, so he could even have something like KTs and with your larger sizing on the river, he realizes that it's likely not good and turns it into a bluff.Even if you don't give him any value hands worse than yours, he's certainly likely to bluff at least 1 out of every 4 times since all of the draws missed. Especially if you're going to fold a set there.

[SuperJon]

Acid_Knight, on Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 10:34 AM, said:

I don't think you're ever going to be shown T9/AT more than 75% of the time the way this hand plays out. If the board is rainbow, I could see a reasonable case for it, but 3-1 is still a really good price.It doesn't matter that most of his FDs are combo draws like Q9hh, 89hh, T8hh, Axhh, he can't profitably call the river with any of them. Also your bet sizing does not encourage him to fold the turn, so he could even have something like KTs and with your larger sizing on the river, he realizes that it's likely not good and turns it into a bluff.Even if you don't give him any value hands worse than yours, he's certainly likely to bluff at least 1 out of every 4 times since all of the draws missed. Especially if you're going to fold a set there.

Couple things (Note that I've never played as high as 2/4, so I have no idea how the games play)1. It's full ring, and Cobalt raises from EP. Is it standard to just flat in the CO with hands like Q9s, 89s, and T8s even though you run the risk of being squeezed by the 3 players left to act?2. If we do give villain a bunch of draws. I thought he would be less likely to bluff since all the draws missed, and we could talk ourselves into making a hero call with the bottom of our value range.

[Acid_Knight]

I don't know how FR plays online. I think 89s & T8s are really really likely hands for him to flat there. Q9s maybe less so, but I don't know. As for the blinds squeezing, I'm sure that's much less common in FR than 6m, less likely with only one caller to squeeze and even less likely when the original raise comes from EP. Those three things would lead me to guess that squeezing is unlikely.He may be less likely to shove a missed draw since all of the draws missed, but that's what makes them missed draws. The fact that nothing got there also means that we bricked a draw a fair amount. I don't know anything about the villain, but on that board, I'd expect that he fastplays a lot of hands because the board will get messy and he might lose his action from hands that would otherwise pay him off.I think the biggest bottom line is that we're getting 3-1 here. That means that he had to flop a straight and play it like this more than 75% of the time for us to profitably fold and I just cannot see how that is possibly the case here.

[CobaltBlue]

Acid_Knight, on Tuesday, December 20th, 2011, 10:34 AM, said:

Especially if you're going to fold a set there.

I don't anticipate that most villains would anticipate their opponent folding a set there...which weights it towards him not bluffing. I dunno...it's just a super funky line for a bluff...flat...flat...timebank bluff-raise-shove. I know that when I take that line, I've almost never got a bluff (and in my experience, neither do opponents). If I'd just checked the river and then he shoved, then yeah, I think he can be betting missed draws plenty. That does raise the question...should I ever be c/cing this river if I'm planning to b/f?

[fighter]

CobaltBlue, on Wednesday, December 21st, 2011, 2:14 PM, said:

I don't anticipate that most villains would anticipate their opponent folding a set there...which weights it towards him not bluffing. I dunno...it's just a super funky line for a bluff...flat...flat...timebank bluff-raise-shove. I know that when I take that line, I've almost never got a bluff (and in my experience, neither do opponents). If I'd just checked the river and then he shoved, then yeah, I think he can be betting missed draws plenty. That does raise the question...should I ever be c/cing this river if I'm planning to b/f?

Pure bluff maybe. However if he has like AK or QJ or Axhh he could easily turn them into bluffs anticipating that you fold two pair hands, combo draws they can't beat for whatever reason, turned or rivered sets and maybe a set of Jacks. (since JJ is a bluff catcher at this point, I don't see him value shoving KQ)I think he has more bluff catches in his range then draws by the river, so B/F>C/C. Don't know where B/C goes because I don't play full ring so have no idea about tendencies.Edit: I should have looked up, it appears that John and Acid have already said this. (I thought only acid posted once).

[answer20]

What an interesting hand as I search thru this site. In the room I play in here in Michigan, that would be exactly what it turned out to be most of the time, being a 'something' flush draw ... never very often the set of Qs since our Hero's line woud be consistent with a set or flush draw so the UTG would have re-raised his set to price out the flush draw from the Hero. The other angle here is that if Hero folds, then UTG is basically free-rolling the main pot.You certainly could just call the 48 for pot control, especially in position of a large stack on a very wet board. There are however a TON of cards that make this board more dangerous and what do you do with a large lead-out bet on Turn? You can still fold, but at least you saw the Turn.I agree that it is possible to fold based on bankroll conditions as well and that could be a consideration of the UTG. I don't find many that I play with remembering 'last week's hands' ... which is good for me ... to the point where UTG doesn't bluff here because of a call made previously.This is obviously a huge draw or QQ ... but I don't think that big of a stack goes in without a nut draw or open ended strt flush draw, not QQ or 88 ... so it comes down to are you ready to flip for you whole stack? I fold some, call most ... if I can re-load to get it back!!