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Hitchens: To American Atheists


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#41 ezelisko

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 04:12 PM

Comments are appreciated, so don't worry, But I will try to respond to everything stated. Ugh. Paragraph breaks. Minor editing. An attempt at clarity and brevity. <---- Try these things.-I don't really care about the structure. However, I could have REALLY broke it down compared to just surface write. I didn't put too much of an effort. My Mother and fathers religion was mentioned for background AND was MEANT to be funny. FYI.The path that I was speaking of made sense if you followed it. I said that I try to use the bible as a guideline for how to live my life. Honestly, I don't think I really need to explain that further. Also said that I am not perfect, and do slip off the path. Let me define path moreso, because that should have been thrown in the explination. I view the path as MY PERSONAL interpretation of the bible, or of what I know of it. What I have been explained, accepted, and so on. I am sorry you weren't able to understand what I was saying. Let me give you a smaller example about what I was trying to say with the rest. Someone so proud as to be obnoxious about religion to the point that they attempt to belittle a person who puts their faith in somthing they are unable to see, feel, or touch shows ignorance and closed-mindedness. Granted, I am not saying conform to any specific religion. However, instead of just trying to blast a person for believing in somthing, why not just state your point in a dignified way and move on. As for the 'use a bible to guide and strive', I try to use the overall message of being a better person to infulence my day. Do not confuse that with 'I am better then you' better person, but when it comes to temptation, anger, so on and so forth, I try to 'turn the other cheek'. I am not enough of a bible thumper, per say, to be obnoxious to any other religion. I do look, here and there, into the different religions. I haven't found a good book about the different religions, so any suggestions would be nice. As for spademan, the critique was nice, although you tried to dominate a bit more then you needed. I don't agree with all things that the bible has in it. I do think there are flaws. It was written by man, whom is not perfect. Therefore, the bible is unable to be perfect. As for the thanking god for everything.... It's just a weird position I take. I thank god for waking me up, putting me to sleep, and giving me another chance to do it again. However, I work, which gives me money for food and shelter, which I use for both. If I were homeless, and I received food and shelter, then I would thank him. However, its the free will that I am given that allows me to work for what I have. Again, probably a weird view, but its just a personal one. Nothing to take away from him. I just view that more as common sense then anything else. Thanks for the critique Spade.

#42 Spademan

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 09:54 PM

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

Ugh. Paragraph breaks. Minor editing. An attempt at clarity and brevity. <---- Try these things.-I don't really care about the structure. However, I could have REALLY broke it down compared to just surface write. I didn't put too much of an effort.
I don't know what "surface write" is. Regardless: if you don't care about the structure, which directly translates into not caring about making yourself clear for people reading you... why should anyone care enough to decipher what you have to say?

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

My Mother and fathers religion was mentioned for background AND was MEANT to be funny. FYI.
That whoosing sound is my point going over your head. There is zero chance that what I was pointing out as funny was intentional. Zero. Try again.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

The path that I was speaking of made sense if you followed it. I said that I try to use the bible as a guideline for how to live my life. Honestly, I don't think I really need to explain that further. Also said that I am not perfect, and do slip off the path. Let me define path moreso, because that should have been thrown in the explination. I view the path as MY PERSONAL interpretation of the bible, or of what I know of it. What I have been explained, accepted, and so on.
No, no, you really do need to explain further. You have in no way addressed your contradiction. Even with your clarification, either:1. The bible is at the very least a rough guide (that you must personally interpret, nonetheless) for the path Yahweh god wants you to follow. You try to follow this path and sometimes go astray.2. "No one on earth can know what the path is" and therefore the bible has shit-all to do with it, practically speaking, and you have no way of knowing when you are on the path, off the path, or butt-fucking the path raw-dog. You can't have it both ways. Inside your mind you can. When you're trying to figure this stuff out in your room while a re-run of the Sopranos plays in the background, you can have it both ways. In the muddled, fuzzy compartments of your brain these things can co-exist.When you put them out in public however, one is free to point out: both knowing a path and not knowing a path cannot mutually exist. A and ~A cannot be made to agree. There are people in the world who aren't subject to your faults in regard to thinking logically.So, further explanation is indeed necessary.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

Someone so proud as to be obnoxious about religion to the point that they attempt to belittle a person who puts their faith in somthing they are unable to see, feel, or touch shows ignorance and closed-mindedness.
This is just fucking nonsense. Period. First of all, you're just making a bald assumption about the pride of a person who would do such. One needn't be "proud" to belittle faith. Faith is fucking stupid. It is, by its very nature, ignorance put into practice. How is belittling a stupid belief "ignorant"? You're claiming it is by necessity ignorant to do so. And, dear god, the "closed-minded" gambit. Jesus. What the fuck are you talking about? How is someone belittling a stupid belief by necessity "closed-minded?" If I study mathematics my whole life, and I'm completely "open minded" in my studies, soaking up everything, and I discover that 1+1 = 2... how does my belittling a person who says "1+1 = 9" make me, by necessity, closed-minded.That's just stupid. You're being stupid. I read this section a few times open-mindedly, just to spite you, and still found it stupid. Hurling phrases like closed minded and ignorant without supporting your claims in any way is closed-minded and ignorant. Medice, cura te ipsum.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

Granted, I am not saying conform to any specific religion. However, instead of just trying to blast a person for believing in somthing, why not just state your point in a dignified way and move on.
I appreciate you educating me on how to be dignified, your concern is noted. Also, please realize that, but for the rare case I'm in a discussion with a believer who shows a strong capacity for reason, logic and critical thought, how I converse with magical-thinkers (you) is more for the audience than the specific believer. The fence-sitters, the fellow critical thinkers who have fallen for the unjustified and enlightenment-damaging reverence for religious beliefs propped up by the privileged god-bot majority - rational people who may overcome their culturally instilled aversion to calling out religious bullshit as a result - and the young who haven't thought about it either way, as a few examples. Ridicule, you see, is an incredibly effective tool for persuading the audience. Especially when your opponent's position/arguments/beliefs are ridiculous. In terms of our current subject, you'll notice that the atheists selling all the books, booking all the speaking engagements, reaching the most people with the most popularity are the ones most often accused of being "rude", "mocking" and "angry".Wonder why.For further information on the effectiveness of ridicule here is an exploration contextually within the "war on terror". Also, when surrounded by privileged, god-bothering idiots and their more moderate enablers, whose beliefs by necessity marginalize anyone who doesn't subscribe to their delusion (down to threats of ETERNAL FUCKING TORTURE - and you call me offensive? Fuck off, dumbass)... when surrounded by these people who are constantly trying to enact policy based upon their stupid-ass, superstitious, tribalistic, cult-text bullshit - I see it as a fucking crime of inaction to not confront if forcefully and without intellectual quarter.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

As for the 'use a bible to guide and strive', I try to use the overall message of being a better person to infulence my day.
The message that Yahweh God is a petulant, genocidal, child-murdering, wavering, glory-seeking, totalitarian, blood-sacrifice demanding, logically contradictory, common-for-its-time conception created by a superstitious, rampant-myth-creating peoples?

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

...when it comes to temptation, anger, so on and so forth, I try to 'turn the other cheek'.
Oh. You must have read a different bible.Or maybe you're picking and choosing isolated passages and trying to pass them off as the "overall message" of that cobbled together piece of shit. Probably the latter.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

I haven't found a good book about the different religions, so any suggestions would be nice.
Learn about yours first. The Jesus Puzzle and A History of God are good places to start.----Cont. (System tells me I'm exceeding the limit on block quotes. The system is an asshole.)
'"Luck" is people taking the laws of probability personally; Luck is the excitement of bad math.'

#43 Spademan

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 09:55 PM

Cont --

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

As for spademan, the critique was nice, although you tried to dominate a bit more then you needed.
1. I didn't "try".2. Reference the points I made regarding ridicule.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

I don't agree with all things that the bible has in it. I do think there are flaws. It was written by man, whom is not perfect. Therefore, the bible is unable to be perfect.
That's a good start. If you can follow that track to a place where you don't enable the invasive god-botherers with your fuzzy Christian beliefs you'll get a cookie.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

As for the thanking god for everything.... It's just a weird position I take. I thank god for waking me up, putting me to sleep, and giving me another chance to do it again. However, I work, which gives me money for food and shelter, which I use for both. If I were homeless, and I received food and shelter, then I would thank him. However, its the free will that I am given that allows me to work for what I have. Again, probably a weird view, but its just a personal one. Nothing to take away from him. I just view that more as common sense then anything else.
Yup. It's weird alright. As weird as thanking Zeus, Xenu, Superman or the planet Jupiter. And how about, if you were homeless, thanking the people that would be providing you with food and shelter. You know, things that exist. Things that are demonstrably helping you. You know as well as I do, maybe only somewhere deep in your mind, that food and shelter are not going to appear before you magically. Do you know why? Because, according observational reality: Yahweh, Zeus, Xenu, and Superman don't exist. And Jupiter hates you.

View Postezelisko, on Sunday, May 22nd, 2011, 5:12 PM, said:

Thanks for the critique Spade.
You're welcome.
'"Luck" is people taking the laws of probability personally; Luck is the excitement of bad math.'

#44 ajs510

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 09:33 AM

View PostSpademan, on Monday, May 23rd, 2011, 1:55 AM, said:

Yup. It's weird alright. As weird as thanking Zeus, Xenu, Superman or the planet Jupiter. And how about, if you were homeless, thanking the people that would be providing you with food and shelter. You know, things that exist. Things that are demonstrably helping you. You know as well as I do, maybe only somewhere deep in your mind, that food and shelter are not going to appear before you magically. Do you know why? Because, according observational reality: Yahweh, Zeus, Xenu, and Superman don't exist. And Jupiter hates you.
Big sloppy mancrush on you right now. Just saying.

#45 Roll the Bones

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:41 PM

View Postajs510, on Monday, May 23rd, 2011, 1:33 PM, said:

Big sloppy mancrush on you right now. Just saying.
Mancrush? Shit, I want his babies!
As Eric Idle wrote: You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!




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