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Set Mining In Deep Stack With Ante Tables


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#1 imatstarbucks

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:26 AM

Is it ok to set mine at deep stack with ante tables? even vs tight players?I posted one of my examples below. Villain is vp 17/ pfr 0 / afq 50 over 20 hands.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG ($19.27)UTG+1 ($25.32)MP1 ($27.57)MP2 ($107.93)CO ($9)Button ($23.14)SB ($19.52)Hero (BB) ($17.67)Preflop: Hero is BB with 7 :club:, 7 :4h1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, Button bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30Flop: ($1.41) 9 :5c, Q :3h, 7 :qh (3 players)Hero bets $0.67, 1 fold, Button calls $0.67Turn: ($2.75) 5 :jh (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $2.20, Hero raises to $5.80, Button calls $3.60River: ($14.35) 9 :ts (2 players)Hero bets $10.78 (All-In)thoughts on the river bet? should I shove or just value town?

#2 fighter

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:50 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Wednesday, March 23rd, 2011, 12:26 AM, said:

Is it ok to set mine at deep stack with ante tables? even vs tight players?I posted one of my examples below. Villain is vp 17/ pfr 0 / afq 50 over 20 hands.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG ($19.27)UTG+1 ($25.32)MP1 ($27.57)MP2 ($107.93)CO ($9)Button ($23.14)SB ($19.52)Hero (BB) ($17.67)Preflop: Hero is BB with 7 :club:, 7 :4h1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, Button bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30Flop: ($1.41) 9 :5c, Q :3h, 7 :qh (3 players)Hero bets $0.67, 1 fold, Button calls $0.67Turn: ($2.75) 5 :jh (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $2.20, Hero raises to $5.80, Button calls $3.60River: ($14.35) 9 :ts (2 players)Hero bets $10.78 (All-In)thoughts on the river bet? should I shove or just value town?
It is better to set mine vs tight players then loose since they are more likely to have an over pair that wont fold then the loose guys. If you are going to lead the flop it has to be at LEAST half pot. On this board with the a flush draw and a lot of straight draw possible you should be betting close to pot. $1.10- 1.30The river you have less then a pot size bet left. So doing anything other then putting all your money in is a mistake.

#3 KingJames

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:21 AM

I'll +1 for post count. Well said, fighter
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#4 KosinTrouble

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:27 AM

Fighter speaks true... +1

#5 imatstarbucks

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:47 AM

View Postfighter, on Tuesday, March 22nd, 2011, 7:50 AM, said:

It is better to set mine vs tight players then loose since they are more likely to have an over pair that wont fold then the loose guys. If you are going to lead the flop it has to be at LEAST half pot. On this board with the a flush draw and a lot of straight draw possible you should be betting close to pot. $1.10- 1.30The river you have less then a pot size bet left. So doing anything other then putting all your money in is a mistake.
without deep stacks or antes. wouldnt calling to set mine be a mistake? At least, i've heard many people who say that its a leak.

#6 KosinTrouble

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 08:06 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Tuesday, March 22nd, 2011, 9:47 AM, said:

without deep stacks or antes. wouldnt calling to set mine be a mistake? At least, i've heard many people who say that its a leak.
For me its all villian dependent. If I know the player is tight, very low preflop raiser and we are both 100bbs or more I will set mine. Because those players typically wont lay down an over pair and I usually get thier stack. If its a really loose player, then when I am OOP and its only him and me, then I usually dump the really small pocket pairs.

#7 imatstarbucks

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:18 AM

View PostKosinTrouble, on Tuesday, March 22nd, 2011, 9:06 AM, said:

For me its all villian dependent. If I know the player is tight, very low preflop raiser and we are both 100bbs or more I will set mine. Because those players typically wont lay down an over pair and I usually get thier stack. If its a really loose player, then when I am OOP and its only him and me, then I usually dump the really small pocket pairs.
I think this theory is "alright" but if we're up against loose players, I would think we would want to play our small PP's. because a loose bad player has a wide range and misses flops often.am I wrong for thinking that way? I just think its way to passive to dump pocket 6's vs a really Loose player. Its like we're scared

#8 KosinTrouble

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:36 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Tuesday, March 22nd, 2011, 1:18 PM, said:

I think this theory is "alright" but if we're up against loose players, I would think we would want to play our small PP's. because a loose bad player has a wide range and misses flops often.am I wrong for thinking that way? I just think its way to passive to dump pocket 6's vs a really Loose player. Its like we're scared
And against the loose bad player that plays fit or fold, definitly be playing all pocket pairs. But if its a loose bad player that floats alot and calls down, then those pocket pairs dont become all that great and higher cards go up in value against his range.I am hoping someone else can come in and articulate what I am trying to say. I'm at work and just trying to get the post out. Can try putting together a better post tonight but I'm sure someone else will chime in.

#9 SuperJon

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 01:56 PM

i just like that MP2 is over 1,000bbs deep.pretty stellar.

#10 fighter

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:57 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Wednesday, March 23rd, 2011, 5:18 AM, said:

I think this theory is "alright" but if we're up against loose players, I would think we would want to play our small PP's. because a loose bad player has a wide range and misses flops often.am I wrong for thinking that way? I just think its way to passive to dump pocket 6's vs a really Loose player. Its like we're scared
I answered a similar question a while ago. http://www.reddit.co...ocket_pairs_on/

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This is so villain and hero dependent.Certain villains are so tight you are just set mining. Against regular tags You can play them for pair value too. If he's cbet/give up then I can play them for pair value easily. If he barrels a lot then I can set mine with implied odds against his air.It can be a bit of a style decision on what you do decide to do with 22-77. Whatever your choice realize there is also range balance issues that you need to take into consideration.If you had been 3betting a lot then flatting pocket pairs pre will turn your flatting range pretty face up since you will be 3beting AJ for value. So in these situations 3betitng them is better since you can shove over 4bets more profitably.Moving on to the post flop , If you don't flat small pocket pairs then you need to work out what you are going to do with hands like JhTh and AJ on 3h4xAh against thinking regs since you dont have AK,AQ,33,44,AAHowever if you are calling all 22-77 then you probably have 30 more combos of dead money you need to be aware of post flop. This can be a issue depending on how wide your defending range is, flop texture and villain.I am not even going to get into 3bet pots.I think I just gave you more questions then answer. Unfortunately until Game Theory Optimal play is discovered, the best you can do is understand the consequences of your actions.


#11 mtdesmoines

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:21 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Tuesday, March 22nd, 2011, 9:26 AM, said:

Is it ok to set mine at deep stack with ante tables? even vs tight players?I posted one of my examples below. Villain is vp 17/ pfr 0 / afq 50 over 20 hands.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG ($19.27)UTG+1 ($25.32)MP1 ($27.57)MP2 ($107.93)CO ($9)Button ($23.14)SB ($19.52)Hero (BB) ($17.67)Preflop: Hero is BB with 7 :club:, 7 :4h1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, Button bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30Flop: ($1.41) 9 :5c, Q :3h, 7 :qh (3 players)Hero bets $0.67, 1 fold, Button calls $0.67Turn: ($2.75) 5 :jh (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $2.20, Hero raises to $5.80, Button calls $3.60River: ($14.35) 9 :ts (2 players)Hero bets $10.78 (All-In)thoughts on the river bet? should I shove or just value town?
You called the raise PF and flopped a set. You shouldn't be asking "now what?"
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#12 imatstarbucks

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:12 AM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Friday, March 25th, 2011, 7:21 AM, said:

You called the raise PF and flopped a set. You shouldn't be asking "now what?"
what do you mean? I'm not asking what to do post flop.I asked about shoving vs value betting the river because villain only called my c/r on the turn.It makes me think he isnt willing to invest a pot sized bet on the river. thats why i was wondering if people would rather bet a 1/3 pot opposed to a 2/3 pot size bet

#13 imatstarbucks

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:17 AM

View Postfighter, on Friday, March 25th, 2011, 6:57 AM, said:

I answered a similar question a while ago. http://www.reddit.co...ocket_pairs_on/
Ya, I watched a few cardrunner vids and thats why I posted this hand. Because a pro on there said its a leak to call with a low PP vs a pf raise.I'm more on the side of the implied odds being the biggest factor. So i guess it becomes very villain dependent, even vs tight or lag players.

#14 mtdesmoines

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:41 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Friday, March 25th, 2011, 11:12 AM, said:

what do you mean? I'm not asking what to do post flop.I asked about shoving vs value betting the river because villain only called my c/r on the turn.It makes me think he isnt willing to invest a pot sized bet on the river. thats why i was wondering if people would rather bet a 1/3 pot opposed to a 2/3 pot size bet
that's an even worse question. you have LESS THAN a PSB for the river. put it in no doubt
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#15 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 09:28 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Friday, March 25th, 2011, 12:17 PM, said:

Because a pro on there said its a leak to call with a low PP vs a pf raise...
Out of position against a good player it can be a leak. If you're not against a deep enough stack AND a player who is going to give you the implied odds to chase the set, then calling the PF is just a waste of money. That is what is being said here. You do have to know when to get off of small pocket pairs preflop.

#16 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 09:29 AM

View Postimatstarbucks, on Friday, March 25th, 2011, 12:12 PM, said:

I asked about shoving vs value betting the river because villain only called my c/r on the turn.
Well, yes and no. You specifically asked about the River, but more generally the topic is about the Value of Set Mining.

#17 rrumsey

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 09:32 AM

usually a good set mining spot involves a tight player opening early position ( like UTG or something like that where we know his range is pretty tight) and someone overcalling who isnt too loose from like MP or something ( aka also has enough hands willing to stack off postflop) and 12:1 or so implied odds. i dont think this is a great spot to make a set mine.another thing why did you lead small on the flop? and what do you think your repping or getting value from by c/ring the turn?
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#18 Ninja Ace

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 09:37 AM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Friday, March 25th, 2011, 11:41 AM, said:

that's an even worse question. you have LESS THAN a PSB for the river. put it in no doubt
true enough, and if even this bet seems "too big", its why fighter said to lead for at least half pot on the flop because this river bet would be half pot making it retardedly easy. I really only posted here to bitch about your flop bet tho. Don't make bet sizes for stupid shit like .67. Not only is it retarded and the poker gods will smite you for it, but it takes extra effort to do such a thing which could be spent on another table.
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