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Jacks Look Worse And Worse


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#1 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:03 PM

$4/$8 LHE live: Passive table that doesn't like raising hands pre-flop too much.I'm dealt :3h :4h in BB.UTG+1 raises, guy in MP calls, CO calls, SB calls, I call.FLOP: :qh :club: :D SB checks, I bet, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, CO calls, SB folds.TURN: :jh :ts :club: :D I bet, UTG+1 folds, MP calls, CO folds.RIVER: :D :ts :D :4h :5c I bet...Ugh, I'm not sure how I feel about how I played any street here. I'm not really liking my river bet, but I'm open to criticism of how I played every street. Critique away.

#2 DinkDonk

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:11 PM

View PostSwift_Psycho, on Sunday, March 6th, 2011, 10:03 PM, said:

$4/$8 LHE live: Passive table that doesn't like raising hands pre-flop too much.I'm dealt :3h :4h in BB.UTG+1 raises, guy in MP calls, CO calls, SB calls, I call.FLOP: :qh :club: :D SB checks, I bet, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, CO calls, SB folds.TURN: :jh :ts :club: :D I bet, UTG+1 folds, MP calls, CO folds.RIVER: :D :ts :D :4h :5c I bet...Ugh, I'm not sure how I feel about how I played any street here. I'm not really liking my river bet, but I'm open to criticism of how I played every street. Critique away.
I think you played it perfectly if you're bet/folding the river. You're going to get called by A high an awful lot, and probably some other stuff that played passively like 88-TT. I don't think that you induce enough bluffs to c/c and I think we're too high in our own range to c/f. You obviously can't give anyone credit for a 5 or a 7 until raised and I doubt anyone bluff raises here ever at live 4/8, so I think it's a pretty standard bet and fold to a raise.

#3 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:18 PM

View PostDinkDonk, on Sunday, March 6th, 2011, 10:11 PM, said:

I think you played it perfectly if you're bet/folding the river. You're going to get called by A high an awful lot, and probably some other stuff that played passively like 88-TT. I don't think that you induce enough bluffs to c/c and I think we're too high in our own range to c/f. You obviously can't give anyone credit for a 5 or a 7 until raised and I doubt anyone bluff raises here ever at live 4/8, so I think it's a pretty standard bet and fold to a raise.
Yes, I was bet/folding the river. You post pretty much sums up my exact thinking...I just felt gross the whole time playing that hand.Say I lost my nerve on the river and just checked. Do I call if Villain bets just on the chance that he's bluffing or value betting a weaker hand?

#4 KingJames

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:20 PM

Why is JJ not a 3bet pre in this situation? vs the loose passives when they finally raise are we playing JJ for over pair/set value only?Then, what makes donking the flop better than c/r like in the trips hand, or c/c? I mean, we don't expect him to bet his whiffed overs enough?
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#5 DinkDonk

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:21 PM

View PostKingJames, on Sunday, March 6th, 2011, 10:20 PM, said:

Why is JJ not a 3bet pre in this situation? vs the loose passives when they finally raise are we playing JJ for over pair/set value only?Then, what makes donking the flop better than c/r like in the trips hand, or c/c? I mean, we don't expect him to bet his whiffed overs enough?
Good post, I overlooked pre-flop, actually. I would 3-bet for sure, just based on the pure equity we gain. But if I did happen to call, and I think it's not completely terrible but not correct either, I would go with my previous comments.And the main difference between donking this flop and the other one is just a difference in hand vulnerability. If our opponent raises us with overcards or a draw here, we're much happier than we would be in the other pot, because in this spot they'd be shutting out a lot more hands with good equity than the other hand.

#6 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:25 PM

View PostKingJames, on Sunday, March 6th, 2011, 10:20 PM, said:

Why is JJ not a 3bet pre in this situation? vs the loose passives when they finally raise are we playing JJ for over pair/set value only?Then, what makes donking the flop better than c/r like in the trips hand, or c/c? I mean, we don't expect him to bet his whiffed overs enough?
Yeah, I was wondering if anyone disagreed with the pre-flop call. Obviously there's no chance of getting anyone to fold by 3-betting, and I guess I felt that against these opponents that when they raised and had a few people willing to call two bets cold (the table actually was mildly tight when it came to their range for calling two bets cold pre-flop) that there wasn't much of an equity edge to be pushing with a three-bet.The donk bet on the flop I was actually very curious about too for people's opinions. This isn't like the trips hand because in the trips hand I'm almost certain that I have the best hand and (for the most part) don't mind trying to trap people in for extra bets on that flop. Here I was sort of hoping that the pre-flop raiser would raise my flop bet and get other guys to fold (I suppose in that scenario I would be praying that he was holding eights, nines, or tens). More importantly, I also want to make 100% sure this doesn't get checked around if the pre-flop raiser only had an A-K that missed because a free card is much more devastating with this hand than the trips hand. But I don't know, part of me was thinking I ought to check and give the pre-flop raiser a chance to bet too (this is the kind of indecision that leads me to post a hand, lol). I don't know if I'm ever check/raising in this spot on the flop, but I'm willing to listen to arguments for why I'm wrong about that too.

#7 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:29 PM

View PostDinkDonk, on Monday, March 7th, 2011, 12:21 AM, said:

Good post, I overlooked pre-flop, actually. I would 3-bet for sure, just based on the pure equity we gain. But if I did happen to call, and I think it's not completely terrible but not correct either, I would go with my previous comments.And the main difference between donking this flop and the other one is just a difference in hand vulnerability. If our opponent raises us with overcards or a draw here, we're much happier than we would be in the other pot, because in this spot they'd be shutting out a lot more hands with good equity than the other hand.
Ah, okay, so two votes for a 3-bet pre-flop even against these opponents. Alright, I'll have to keep that in mind.And yeah, your explanation of my flop bet is mildly similar to what I posted above.

#8 DinkDonk

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:29 PM

View PostSwift_Psycho, on Monday, March 7th, 2011, 12:25 AM, said:

Yeah, I was wondering if anyone disagreed with the pre-flop call. Obviously there's no chance of getting anyone to fold by 3-betting, and I guess I felt that against these opponents that when they raised and had a few people willing to call two bets cold (the table actually was mildly tight when it came to their range for calling two bets cold pre-flop) that there wasn't much of an equity edge to be pushing with a three-bet.The donk bet on the flop I was actually very curious about too for people's opinions. This isn't like the trips hand because in the trips hand I'm almost certain that I have the best hand and (for the most part) don't mind trying to trap people in for extra bets on that flop. Here I was sort of hoping that the pre-flop raiser would raise my flop bet and get other guys to fold (I suppose in that scenario I would be praying that he was holding eights, nines, or tens). More importantly, I also want to make 100% sure this doesn't get checked around if the pre-flop raiser only had an A-K that missed because a free card is much more devastating with this hand than the trips hand. But I don't know, part of me was thinking I ought to check and give the pre-flop raiser a chance to bet too (this is the kind of indecision that leads me to post a hand, lol). I don't know if I'm ever check/raising in this spot on the flop, but I'm willing to listen to arguments for why I'm wrong about that too.
Another really good post. I'm impressed out how accurately you pick out the relevant factors to hands.




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