2325 replies to this topic

[akoff]

if recall the invasion had approval of 98-0-2...based on the information we had at the time. just saying that it was pretty close bipartisan approval.

[timwakefield]

Zealous Donkey, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 5:50 AM, said:

http://www.slate.com/id/2148555/http://www.slate.com/id/2146475/http://www.washingto...6071201519.htmlhttp://www.slate.com/id/2139609/http://www.slate.com/id/2140058/http://www.slate.com/id/2103795/http://www.washingto...4-2004Jul9.htmlhttp://www.weeklysta...12/648ygtoe.asp

You didn't have to link me to 15 Christopher Hitchens articles - one would be enough . He makes a pretty good case, and clearly there were things I got wrong, but other writers and politicians certainly see it differently than these writers do, regarding both the Niger report and Plamegate.

akoff, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 6:27 AM, said:

if recall the invasion had approval of 98-0-2...based on the information we had at the time. just saying that it was pretty close bipartisan approval.

Because Bush said in his State of the Union that Iraq was working on nukes.

[Zealous Donkey]

timwakefield, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 6:26 AM, said:

You didn't have to link me to 15 Christopher Hitchens articles - one would be enough . He makes a pretty good case, and clearly there were things I got wrong, but other writers and politicians certainly see it differently than these writers do, regarding both the Niger report and Plamegate.Because Bush said in his State of the Union that Iraq was working on nukes.

No, because they were basing their decision on numerous faulty intelligence reports. Ironically, the one mentioned in the State of Union address has not been debunked. Judith Miller has also debunked a lot of this stuff. She went to jail because she wouldn't disclose conversations she had with Scooter Libby where they talked about Plame. BTW Scooter Libby apparently did know about Plame but it is obvious to me that he has no clue where he first learned this information. The whole investigation was a farce, they knew from the beginning what happened, but they couldn't find a way to spin it in a way bring down the Bush administration. Plame's name was out there to a whole bunch of different people a long time before any of this came to light, trying to act as though it was suddenly leaked as revenge against Joe Wilson was lie that is kept alive only by the Soros backed propaganda machine.

[timwakefield]

Zealous Donkey, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 7:37 AM, said:

Plame's name was out there to a whole bunch of different people a long time before any of this came to light, trying to act as though it was suddenly leaked as revenge against Joe Wilson was lie that is kept alive only by the Soros backed propaganda machine.

I'll admit that I may have been taken in by that lie...like Bush was taken in by the lie about uranium cake amirite!

[Zealous Donkey]

timwakefield, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 6:45 AM, said:

I'll admit that I may have been taken in by that lie...like Bush was taken in by the lie about uranium cake amirite!

Actually no, Bush wasn't wrong, he double checked with British Intelligence, there was no lie. They still believe Iraq was trying to get Uranium from Nigeria, like they had in the early 80s. This hasn't changed. Aside from being a liar it turns out Joe Wison was rather incompetent at least in this mission. Here is another non- Hitchens link on the whole Plamegate affair. http://www.washingto...3101460_pf.html

[Balloon guy]

timwakefield, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 4:45 AM, said:

I'll admit that I may have been taken in by that lie...like Bush was taken in by the lie about uranium cake amirite!

So your belief is that Iraq did not want any wmds? did not want to be a nuclear power?Saddam just wanted to be left alone?

[brvheart]

Curtis Meier said:

Curtis: we need more time [This is referring to Meghin’s audio]oh well, ok I need to get to beddo you mind finishing the PowerPoint? I will give you all of the files for itMeghin's files are not matching up completely with the PowerPoint though and I could be up all night trying to edit her work. It might be easier to edit the PowerPoint

[timwakefield]

brvheart, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 12:41 PM, said:

HAHAHHA.. Tim, this might be a new low.

What do you mean, that part is hardly disputable. Bush said, We have to go to war, Saddam is getting nukes. You don't think that influenced the Senate? You don't think it should?

Balloon guy, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 10:42 AM, said:

So your belief is that Iraq did not want any wmds? did not want to be a nuclear power?

Nearly every country in the world wants to be a nuclear power.

[Pot Odds RAC]

timwakefield, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 1:22 PM, said:

...You don't think that influenced the Senate? You don't think it should?Nearly every country in the world wants to be a nuclear power.

So the Senate should be able to be influenced to invade nearly every country in the world?...let's get to work!

[Balloon guy]

timwakefield, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 10:22 AM, said:

Nearly every country in the world wants to be a nuclear power.

So Saddam wanted to build nukes and we know that the French and the German have sold them centrifuges etc in the very recent past.But Bush was supposed to doubt 95% of the intelligence agencies of countries all over the world and assume that Iraq wasn't actively pursuing an expansion of his nuclear program?Right after kicking out the UN inspectors?Who were there to confirm that Saddam was obeying that UN Directive, while simultaneously in clear violation of 74 other UN directives?

[hblask]

Zealous Donkey, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 4:50 AM, said:

Intelligence about WMD's was obviously wrong!, but Everyone believed them to be true at the time.

This is false. The UN had inspectors in the country and they repeatedly stated they had found no evidence of WMDs. No reliable source thought they had any. Bush just fished around until he found someone who told him what he wanted to hear, and ignored the other dozens of sources that said there were none. I believe we covered all this at the time on this forum, before the war started, if anyone is interested enough to dig it up.

[timwakefield]

Pot Odds RAC, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 1:28 PM, said:

So the Senate should be able to be influenced to invade nearly every country in the world?...let's get to work!

That's...not what I said. Those two sentences that you quoted are completely independent and were each responding to completely different statements. They're not related.

[Zealous Donkey]

hblask, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 7:45 PM, said:

This is false. The UN had inspectors in the country and they repeatedly stated they had found no evidence of WMDs. No reliable source thought they had any. Bush just fished around until he found someone who told him what he wanted to hear, and ignored the other dozens of sources that said there were none. I believe we covered all this at the time on this forum, before the war started, if anyone is interested enough to dig it up.

So Bush should have trusted the UN inspectors? Yes, it turns out that maybe he should have. I don't blame him at all for not having faith in them. I hope you aren't calling the UN a reliable source. It was widely thought that Saddam was hiding WMDs, and his own behaviors suggested he had them, or at least wanted some of the local enemies to think he had them.

[Balloon guy]

Zealous Donkey, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 10:47 PM, said:

So Bush should have trusted the UN inspectors? Yes, it turns out that maybe he should have. I don't blame him at all for not having faith in them. I hope you aren't calling the UN a reliable source. It was widely thought that Saddam was hiding WMDs, and his own behaviors suggested he had them, or at least wanted some of the local enemies to think he had them.

Which UN inspectors?Hans Blix in Feb 2003?

Quote

We have now commenced the process of destroying approximately 50 litres of mustard gas declared by Iraq that was being kept under UNMOVIC seal at the Muthanna site. One-third of the quantity has already been destroyed. The laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor, which we found at another site, has also been destroyed....How much, if any, is left of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and related proscribed items and programmes? So far, UNMOVIC has not found any such weapons, only a small number of empty chemical munitions, which should have been declared and destroyed. Another matter - and one of great significance - is that many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for. To take an example, a document, which Iraq provided, suggested to us that some 1,000 tonnes of chemical agent were "unaccounted for". One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist. However, that possibility is also not excluded. If they exist, they should be presented for destruction. If they do not exist, credible evidence to that effect should be presented.We are fully aware that many governmental intelligence organizations are convinced and assert that proscribed weapons, items and programmes continue to exist. The US Secretary of State presented material in support of this conclusion. Governments have many sources of information that are not available to inspectors. Inspectors, for their part, must base their reports only on evidence, which they can, themselves, examine and present publicly. Without evidence, confidence cannot arise.

Quote

In my earlier briefings, I have noted that significant outstanding issues of substance were listed in two Security Council documents from early 1999 (S/1999/94 and S/1999/356) and should be well known to Iraq. I referred, as examples, to the issues of anthrax, the nerve agent VX and long-range missiles, and said that such issues "deserve to be taken seriously by Iraq rather than being brushed aside...". The declaration submitted by Iraq on 7 December last year, despite its large volume, missed the opportunity to provide the fresh material and evidence needed to respond to the open questions. This is perhaps the most important problem we are facing. Although I can understand that it may not be easy for Iraq in all cases to provide the evidence needed, it is not the task of the inspectors to find it. Iraq itself must squarely tackle this task and avoid belittling the questions.In my January update to the Council, I referred to the Al Samoud 2 and the Al Fatah missiles, reconstituted casting chambers, construction of a missile engine test stand and the import of rocket engines, which were all declared to UNMOVIC by Iraq. I noted that the Al Samoud 2 and the Al Fatah could very well represent prima facie cases of proscribed missile systems, as they had been tested to ranges exceeding the 150-kilometre limit set by the Security Council. I also noted that Iraq had been requested to cease flight tests of these missiles until UNMOVIC completed a technical review.

[akoff]

Better to just blame Bush, it fits better with the revised history our Democratic Unionized school teachers are in the process of creating to teach the future generations.

[brvheart]

timwakefield, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 12:22 PM, said:

What do you mean

The fact that you are saying that every single democratic senator was SOOOOO trusting of George W. Bush, that they simply believed what he said in a speech and decided that was enough proof to send our country to war. Insane = you.

[Spademan]

akoff, on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2011, 4:42 AM, said:

LOL LIBS

You might suffer from sever mental retardation.Seriously, is that how you've conducted yourself in every post?I said a while ago I'd come into the blog/politic forum to clean it up, but due to real life obligations I just got around to it. You're my first order of business, you babbling, broken record retard.

[akoff]

Spademan, on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2011, 6:54 AM, said:

You might suffer from sever mental retardation.Seriously, is that how you've conducted yourself in every post?I said a while ago I'd come into the blog/politic forum to clean it up, but due to real life obligations I just got around to it. You're my first order of business, you babbling, broken record retard.

good luck with that. i would love to argue with you but this is not my prefered means of it. plus we are rapidly approaching golf season and i will lose interest in you and this forum quickly if i have to decide where to better spend my time. i do have to run my business occasionally...it is a pain somedays but it also allows me to pretty much do whatever i feel like on a random day.

[Spademan]

akoff, on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2011, 7:04 AM, said:

good luck with that. i would love to argue with you but this is not my prefered means of it. plus we are rapidly approaching golf season and i will lose interest in you and this forum quickly if i have to decide where to better spend my time. i do have to run my business occasionally...it is a pain somedays but it also allows me to pretty much do whatever i feel like on a random day.

Good one.You got me.Yes, you're going to run away to save yourself the embarrassment. At least you show a modicum of instinctual self-preservation. It's better than nothing.However, you won't be allowed to pretend like your stupidity, and your inability to respond has to do with how busy you are. Ya, I work in Intelligence. I go to Iraq and Afghanistan for months to over a year at a time, and I still destroy you.And I'm literally the best at what I do.So... ya.Time constraint isn't an excuse and you're just an idiot. Nice try though. Now dissolve into the background.

[akoff]

Spademan, on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2011, 6:16 AM, said:

Good one.You got me.Yes, you're going to run away to save yourself the embarrassment. At least you show a modicum of instinctual self-preservation. It's better than nothing.However, you won't be allowed to pretend like your stupidity, and your inability to respond has to do with how busy you are. Ya, I work in Intelligence. I go to Iraq and Afghanistan for months to over a year at a time, and I still destroy you.And I'm literally the best at what I do.So... ya.Time constraint isn't an excuse and you're just an idiot. Nice try though. Now dissolve into the background.

well said, i know when i am overmatched...that is not the same as being wrong. you continue on with the intelligence stuff and i will continue to watch the Unit!