26 replies to this topic

[Roll the Bones]

We were talking about the bible as myth in the politics forum so I figured I'd move the convo here. I've been thinking about it the last week or so and was reading Genesis, the early stuff to see if I could find some examples. First off, let me say, it's been a while and as a guy who reads alot, it really doesn't get better than this stuff. I mean it's got a little for everyone. It also made me think of why the gnostics always thought God was the bad guy. I mean he pretty much is a vindictive, jealous asswipe.If you read it with the perspective that it's written about 1000 years after Abraham died (who it's mostly about) and that these people were nomadic tribesmen it makes alot more sense then it has to me previously. A quick thing about how old the people lived. It was nothing for the people pre-flood to live to be 600 up to 1000 years. Abraham died happy and content at the ripe old age of 137. I have to think the writers knew how long they and their ancestors lived, but why did they give superhuman aging powers to the their early ancestors? If you look at it as the writers, simply writing down myths that had been passed down for generations it makes more sense. Stories seem to get grander and grander the longer they are spread around and passed down. "Oh and he lived to be 80, no I mean, 280, no I meant he lived to be 8 HUNDRED YEARS OLD! They could speak to Gods, fought angels, dealt with angels, their towers reached the sky, they seemingly lived forever. This really isn't much different than Aesops fables or Chinese/Japanese mythology etc.The other thing is that being nomadic tribesmen, God seemed to favor humans that were decietful, tricky and conniving over those that were generally your typical loyal follower, especially with Jacob over Esau. Jacob tricked dear old dad, Isaac into blessing him instead of Esau by wearing goatskin to have the hairy appearance of his brother (dad was old and blind and near death but still managed to live a long time afterwards for some reason) while he gave him a bowl of stew. It worked and Jacob became the son blessed and favored by God and apparently there weren't any "take-backs" in those days because after Isaac found out, it was tough luck for Esau. Years later when Jacob was trying to win back his brothers affection (because he was afraid Esau was going to kick his ass for the bullshit he's pulled), he tried to bribe him with hundreds of animals. But, no, Esau was a good guy and said, "**** it, keep your sheep" and gave him a chest bump and a big hug and was very altruistic and forgiving about the matter. The real question is why everyone names their kid Jacob? He was a snot. You never hear of poor old Esau and he was really the good guy in the affair. Virtually every story in Genesis is filled with sibling rivalry. Heck, Cain killed Abel because when they both made plates of food as gifts to God, God prefered the Abel's meat over Cains vegetable platter. God wasn't a Vegan apparently. That sent Cain into a rage so he killed his brother. God didn't seem to mind though since Cain went on to prosper with God's help. Anyway, I suppose in all these Genesis stories God favored only one of the sons and only conniving tricky women survived, because you know, that's the way it was back then. There probably wasn't enough to pass on to more than one son. Women were treated like sheep, much like today's tribal muslims still do. The stories just got carried away to epic proportions over time. I don't think there's much of a chance that what they thought the story meant is what we think the story means.

[Balloon guy]

The history of the US is filled with scummy laws, slavery, killing, Irish people etc.That isn't what America is, it is just the story of the things that happened.The Old Testament is like that, a history book showing us the depravity of man, and the consequences of our actions.If I wrote a book that shows God's treatment of Nazi Germany, you would not have any problem if I said God manipulated things to make them lose the war etc, becaus.e they deserve to suffer for their actions. So the beginning point of believing that sinners deserve punishment changes the perspective of the writings The OT for me is designed to show me that sin isn't a little something that is 'not really any big deal', and 'God should let it slide because it was just a little sin'. I came to God first with the understanding that if God was real, God had full right to squash me under His thumb anytime He wanted to. He had complete and total right and ability to do whatever He wanted, just by the fact He was God.Its made my understanding of the OT easier, and my appreciation for Grace all the deeper.1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.But I get why the OT is filled with seemingly conflicting descriptions of who God is.

[Roll the Bones]

Yeah, but if you've read anything like Infidel by Hirsi Ali she gives a good account of what it's like to live in a poverty stricken muslim area in Africa, where clans rule and things like slavery, abuse of women, marraige to cousins and arranged marraiges, and all kinds of medievel rituals and culture are persistent; along with magic belief in ghosts and spirits an interfering mean spirited God, it is amazingly similar. Alot of the morality depicted in Genesis really seems like the basis for much of the culture they still have today. The Muslim Brotherhood would share alot of beliefs with Abraham most likely. I am not saying that to be critical as it was simply the way things were or evolved at that time. I must say, I would like to review and give my thoughts chapter by chapter but it would entail too much time. It is very entertaining to read though.I'll give my version of Chapter 29-31 The ultimate Soap Opera!Jacob falls in love with his cousin Rachel. To prove his love and win her heart he works 7 years for his uncle. When they go down the aisle and get married, the uncle tricked him and stuck the older daughter Leah under the veil. Jacob is familiar with people being duped since he comes from a long line of dupers and is himself pretty good at it having duped his own father on the blessing thingy. No to be detered in his quest to nail Rachel, he works 7 more years and then gets to marry Rachel. Again, multiple wives weren't an issue back then and probably evolved as a survival technique from earlier nomadic cultures, but I digress.This is where it gets good.Leah starts banging out babies left and right. Rachel is pissed because it turns out she isn't fertile, so she sends her maid Bilhah to bang Jacob and she pops out a couple of boys. Leah gets really pissed and not to be outdone by her sister sends HER maid Zilpah to go bang Jacob. If I get a couple cats I am naming them Zilpah and Bilhah. Anyway, Zilpah has a couple more kids by Jacob and at this point he is either worn out or simply a lucky guy, depending on your point of view.At this point I suppose the original sisters figure that's a draw, so they go back to banging their hubby. Leah has another son and then Rachel finally gets past the infertility and pops one of her own out. This whole time Leah and Rachel are going at it fueding like the final two contestants on the Bachelor. Now poor Jacob is left broke trying to feed all these kids and he didn't have Obamacare or Food Stamps or nothing. So he asks the uncle if he can have some spotted goats to start his own business. The uncle agrees but then tries to trick Jacob again. I mean, really if you can't trust an uncle to give you his daughter why in the fuck would you trust him to give you some spotted goats? C'MON! The uncle tried to sneak all the spotted goats out of the herd obviously and leave Jacob with the dreg goats, but Jacob finally catches on and does some behind the back breeding (and we thought they only kissed sheep!) and makes all the good goats spotted leaving the shit goats to uncle Laban. It's like the movie Face-Off with Trravolta and Cage crossing and double crossing each other all the time. It doesn't really say how God views all this debauchery but he obviously doesn't seem to mind, and Jacob still is pretty favored in Gods eye and goes to beat the dog shit out of an angel in the next chapter.Like I said, this stuff beats the hell out of John Grisham.

[Roll the Bones]

Oh and after they have all these kids does Jacob learn his lesson about sibling rivalry after all the shit with his brother? Hell no! He makes Joseph his favorite since he was the one from Rachel, and gives him a fancy pantsy designer official authentic NFL Tunic. This pisses off all of those other brothers naturally so they squabble over who is going to kill him but come to a truce and end up giving up letting one brother Judah sell him into slavery for 20 pieces of silver. Obviously the New Testament rips this story off when Judas gives up Jesus for 30 pieces of silver but I don't view it as plagarism as much as just going with a good theme. It's kind of like re-making a movie in a new genre.

[BaseJester]

Balloon guy, on Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 12:27 PM, said:

The history of the US is filled with scummy laws, slavery, killing, Irish people etc.That isn't what America is, it is just the story of the things that happened.The Old Testament is like that, a history book showing us the depravity of man, and the consequences of our actions.

I'm unclear on the analogy you're drawing here. Is it this?American History : America :: Bible : Mankind

[Roll the Bones]

After watching the vb's video thread, it pretty much confirmed my suspicions about the early people in the bible all being polythiests, and believing in mulitple gods. There is incident after incident where God warns them not to pay attention to the other gods. I mean, he pretty much says it right in the ten commandments as well, "I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."Oh and I also got confused on the whole commandment thing. I didn't realize there was a couple sets of them. When Moses first came down and didn't have them in stone tablet form, I kept trying to figure out how he came up with them. I could come up with anywhere between 8 and 11 depending on how you bunched them together. Anyway, we he came back down with the stone tablets most of them were completely different than the first batch, at least in the Torah anyway.And really, I never realized what a bunch of whiners the Israelites were. It is amazing that no matter what God does, the next day they are whining and complaining. He saves them from slavery in Egypt, they whine and want to go back to Egypt the next day because they are hungry. He gives them manna, they whine. He gives them water from a rock, they whine. I mean it is constant. I seriously don't blame God for killing a bunch of them half the time. I'm not sure if I was an all powerful diety that I could have put up with it either, and really God isn't exactly the pillar of patience here. Moses has to talk him out of killing them a bunch of times and even borrowed from Abraham once using the, "dont blame them all for the actions of a few" argument. Moses and God are constantly having spats and I'm surprised how many times Moses wins him over with intellect or just flat out begging.How many miracles do the Isrealites have to witness before they accept him as their God anyway? He saves them from Egypt by beating the hell out of Egypt's Gods outdoing their magic spells at every turn, (another example of other gods as well) gives them manna, water from rocks, creates an earthquake that gobbles up some rebels* and sets all the others on fire, goes crazy after the golden calf incident, staffs into serpents and on and on. What do they do? They fucking whine and doubt him! I couldn't help but wonder if this wasn't related to the Jewish stereotypical mother who whines and threatens to stick her head in the oven if her son doesn't become a doctor or marry a Jew gal.*The rebels are actually mad that God only talks to Moses and his piece of shit brother Aaron. I couldn't help but think of Marin Luther complaining the same way about the Catholics and their claim that only the pope could talk to God. It is really contrary to the notion that God speaks to everyone. He gets so mad at them for even questioning this he sends them to the desert for 40 years to think about it. Really this is probably a good idea as well. It's kind of unrealistic for God to expect so much from a bunch of people that have been enslaved for the last 430 years.

[vbnautilus]

All pay heed! The Lord, Jevohah, has given unto you these fifteen....... ... ten, ten commandments for all to obey!

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

Balloon guy, on Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 9:27 AM, said:

The history of the US is filled with scummy laws, slavery, killing, Irish people etc.That isn't what America is, it is just the story of the things that happened.The Old Testament is like that, a history book showing us the depravity of man, and the consequences of our actions.If I wrote a book that shows God's treatment of Nazi Germany, you would not have any problem if I said God manipulated things to make them lose the war etc, becaus.e they deserve to suffer for their actions. So the beginning point of believing that sinners deserve punishment changes the perspective of the writings The OT for me is designed to show me that sin isn't a little something that is 'not really any big deal', and 'God should let it slide because it was just a little sin'. I came to God first with the understanding that if God was real, God had full right to squash me under His thumb anytime He wanted to. He had complete and total right and ability to do whatever He wanted, just by the fact He was God.Its made my understanding of the OT easier, and my appreciation for Grace all the deeper.1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.But I get why the OT is filled with seemingly conflicting descriptions of who God is.

just a quick ? balloon guy and im being serious here. why do you preach Christianity (which the basic message is love and acceptance), but you always say something hateful, racist or rude (i know youre joking around, and i know you push my buttons because its easy to.) but seriously man, what gives? look at your quote from timothy: full acceptance, save sinners. you say something hateful and rude, then back it up with a quote about love and acceptance? and please give a serious response. i know you have the ability to.

[brvheart]

GeneralGeeWhiz, on Saturday, February 19th, 2011, 2:31 PM, said:

just a quick ? balloon guy and im being serious here. why do you preach Christianity (which the basic message is love and acceptance), but you always say something hateful, racist or rude (i know youre joking around, and i know you push my buttons because its easy to.) but seriously man, what gives? look at your quote from timothy: full acceptance, save sinners. you say something hateful and rude, then back it up with a quote about love and acceptance? and please give a serious response. i know you have the ability to.

Do you still hate your 3rd grade basketball coach?

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

brvheart, on Saturday, February 19th, 2011, 12:40 PM, said:

Do you still hate your 3rd grade basketball coach?

its was a legitimate question.

[Balloon guy]

GeneralGeeWhiz, on Saturday, February 19th, 2011, 8:20 PM, said:

its was a legitimate question.

No it wasn't.

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

Balloon guy, on Saturday, February 19th, 2011, 9:26 PM, said:

No it wasn't.

yes it is. how can you preach hate and love at the same time? its a very simple question balloonguy.

[Balloon guy]

GeneralGeeWhiz, on Sunday, February 20th, 2011, 1:54 AM, said:

yes it is. how can you preach hate and love at the same time? its a very simple question balloonguy.

How can you not understand english while typing it?

[vbnautilus]

GeneralGeeWhiz, on Sunday, February 20th, 2011, 1:54 AM, said:

yes it is. how can you preach hate and love at the same time? its a very simple question balloonguy.

how can you preach not preaching hate and love at the same time while you preach hating on balloonguy?

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

Balloon guy, on Sunday, February 20th, 2011, 11:54 AM, said:

How can you not understand english while typing it?

just answer me. man, you're so immature its funny. keep coming back with straw man arguments because you cant have a mature conversation. or you realize what originally said is true and you cant make a valid point.now come back with one of your irrelevant quips against mexicans or something

vbnautilus, on Sunday, February 20th, 2011, 6:34 PM, said:

how can you preach not preaching hate and love at the same time while you preach hating on balloonguy?

fight fire with fire. and im sick of his hatred.

[brvheart]

GeneralGeeWhiz, on Saturday, February 19th, 2011, 10:20 PM, said:

its was a legitimate question.

How do you expect BG to explain how humor works? Everyone else gets it. That means the problem doesn't lie with BG.

[brvheart]

vbnautilus, on Sunday, February 20th, 2011, 8:34 PM, said:

how can you preach not preaching hate and love at the same time while you preach hating on balloonguy?

GeneralGeeWhiz, on Sunday, February 20th, 2011, 11:20 PM, said:

fight fire with fire. and im sick of his hatred.

Lesson 1: IRONY!Also: Mexicans are smelly.

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

brvheart, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 5:32 AM, said:

Lesson 1: IRONY!Also: Mexicans are smelly.

1: yes. the ironing.2: yes. im 1/2 mexican and my relatives stink.

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

brvheart, on Monday, February 21st, 2011, 5:30 AM, said:

How do you expect BG to explain how humor works? Everyone else gets it. That means the problem doesn't lie with BG.

our definition of humor must be different. serious or not, racism/bigotry isn't a joke. ive seen how it can lead to serious hate first handed, thats why i cant stand it.

[Skeleton Jelly]

My definition of humor would include the above post.