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Bad Fold


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#1 jamesc

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 09:53 AM

Posted ImageDont have a cow, heres your converted handPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t300/t600 ante t50 - 8 playersCO: t2,610 Button: t10,880 SB: t4,860 BB: t3,900 UTG: t7,840 UTG+1: t3,297 MP: t4,270 HJ: t11,354 (Hero)Preflop: (t1,300) Hero is HJ with :club: :ts (8 players)3 folds, Hero raises to t1500, CO folds, Button raises to t10830 and is all-in, 2 folds, Hero foldsButton collected t4300We had the same amount of chips and I couldnt see him raising without a super strong hand. I didnt want to risk my game on a toss up. Thanks for the feedback guys.

#2 donk4life

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 10:18 AM

Yeah, raising with less than 20 bbs and folding to a shove is always a sound play.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#3 potatoman

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:45 PM

Not horrid. But once you're dropped below 20 bbs, you no longer have the luxury of avoiding flips. If you feel strongly that your opponents has you crushed, folding is fine I guess. But you can't be making big folds here cuze you're too good to take a flip.

#4 Mills

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:46 PM

Don't raise in this spot with any hand you aren't prepared to stack off with.

#5 HighwayStar

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:50 PM

I'd call off here almost always.

View PostMills, on Thursday, January 13th, 2011, 11:46 PM, said:

Don't raise in this spot with any hand you aren't prepared to stack off with.
Mehhh I open here with "value" hands intending to get in vs all the shortstacks and fold to the big stack. Something like QJo or A5s
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#6 Mills

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 05:39 PM

fair enough

#7 Jam-Fly

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 11:23 PM

View PostMills, on Thursday, January 13th, 2011, 11:46 PM, said:

Don't raise in this spot with any hand you aren't prepared to stack off with.
yeah you can't say something as definitive as that.meh, it's not a great spot but I guess you just have to call here. Unless you think your opponent has a super tight range, I can't see how you fold. It's a fairly classic bad MTT spot imo
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#8 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:37 AM

View PostHighwayStar, on Thursday, January 13th, 2011, 5:50 PM, said:

Mehhh I open here with "value" hands intending to get in vs all the shortstacks and fold to the big stack. Something like QJo or A5s
Really? You would go as wide as QJo in this spot vs the CO SB BB?? I mean, you're the man, but at an $11 tourney and at those short stacks I would think they are shoving any A at this point. Well, I guess SB and BB may think/have some FE against you and hope you fold to a shove I guess? Learn something new every day.Ohh, and I call all day here, unless I have stats on the guy to make me think otherwise. Looks like you double-up here, you are chip leader and you can cruise to a top 3 finish.
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#9 donk4life

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:41 AM

I disagree that players in an $11 are shoving any ace other random crap in this spot. Generally, players at these stakes are a lot weaker than people realize. I think it's a huge misconception that every random player is an aggro-tard. At points in these tournies a lot players are going to tighten up significantly, so raising with a hand like QJ can be a really good play.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#10 HighwayStar

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:58 AM

You don't get jammed on that often by the short stacks...at a guess 25-35% of the time between the three of them ......and when you do you have okay equity (~40%) with hands like QJ...more than enough to call. Hands like 98s are pretty good here too.I'm tightening up here if the big stack is very active, I have a lot less of a raise/folding range. I might have something of an open jamming range with hands like 66/AJ too.
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#11 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:41 AM

View Postdonk4life, on Friday, January 14th, 2011, 10:41 AM, said:

I disagree that players in an $11 are shoving any ace other random crap in this spot. Generally, players at these stakes are a lot weaker than people realize. I think it's a huge misconception that every random player is an aggro-tard. At points in these tournies a lot players are going to tighten up significantly, so raising with a hand like QJ can be a really good play.
I know they tighten up a good bit, that's why I wondered why calling a shove as wide as QJo was good. I understand raising late position with better hands to try and steal blinds/antes, just did not know that you could go as wide as QJo, or even 98s. I am not arguing, just wanted to understand the reasoning, and Highway did a good job of explaining. I understand better now. Usually in 180s I get blinded out by the time it gets close to ITM, and I am starting to see that I am playing too tight and not taking advantage at the 300/600 and above levels with situations like this with hands like QJo/A5 etc. Thanks guys!Just for fun, in this hand if UTG+1 open shoved, I would assume it would be an easy iso-shove with the 88s, but what about with QJo or A5??
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#12 donk4life

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:52 AM

Yeah, highway is really smart about explaining that sort of stuff so just listen to him. I just click buttons

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#13 HighwayStar

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:00 AM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on Friday, January 14th, 2011, 5:41 PM, said:

Just for fun, in this hand if UTG+1 open shoved, I would assume it would be an easy iso-shove with the 88s, but what about with QJo or A5??
This depends way more on who UTG+1 is.If it's me or some other reg then yes..edit- it's somewhat close with these two hands...they would definitely be at the bottom of my isolating range vs anyone sane.If it's a random you dont know I'd lean towards folding...you see way way tighter shoving ranges than you expect in that spot. Some regs are also way too tight there, usually they're the guys running 10/8 over heaps of hands. Every situation of stacks and players is different. There can definitely be plenty of spots where opening hands like 98s/QJo/A5s with 11k in the CO at 300/600 can be a less attractive proposition. Just takes tons and tons practice to get quick at realising when a play can be good, mediocre or bad.
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#14 TrueAce13

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 07:10 PM

View Postdonk4life, on Friday, January 14th, 2011, 9:52 AM, said:

Yeah, highway is really smart about explaining that sort of stuff so just listen to him. I just click buttons
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#15 rrumsey

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:44 AM

unless it is a super passive or super nitty guy doing this i can't fold this.
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