20 replies to this topic

[joeythep]

Okay, here's the sitch. I'm at the final table of a small home tourney. Were five handed. I'm on the button holding A-Ks. Blinds are 100-200. I'm short stacked at about $1500.It's folded to me, I raise to 500, small blind calls, big blind folds. Flop comes Js-7s-Kd.My opponent has a few more chips than me, about 2000 before the hand. He checks to me, I'm holding top pair, top kicker, with a nut flush draw, so I go all in, hoping to double up. Small blind calls, and flips over J-7 off suit. Needless to say, I draw no K, no A, and no spade. Why else would I be here? How could I have played this hand better? I bet 500 into a 300 pot, up against only the blinds. Did the small blind just make a horrendous call, and get lucky? He called one fourth of his stack, with nothing. If he just figured me for a steal of the blinds, why didn't he raise me? Secondly, do you think I was out of line, going all in at the flop? Even with his two pair, I still had 14 outs, two times, that's better than fifty percent, right? This isn't bothering me as much as it sounds like. I just want to get some feedback. I just stuck around, watched the final four (dude got busted two hands later, hehe), and jumped online and took two single table tourneys. So, I'm not on tilt or anything. Just...uh...curious?PS...I forgot to mention, it was a 22 player, $20 buy in, winner take all tourney. So it's not like I could have played more conservatively and finish in the money. I was trying to win the damned thing.

[NYSPOKER]

With your big draw, take the free card. Outcome probably would not have been much different considering the chip stacks and the size of the pot.

[Wilderness]

The only thing that I think you should have done differently is to make a bigger raise pre-flop which would usually knock out trash hands like J7o. Now, if you make a big raise and he still calls with that crap and hits his hand like he did, well you just can't help that. Given that you are short-stacked, hit top-pair/top-kicker plus the nut flush draw ... in your position I probably would have went all-in as well.

[Smasharoo]

You played it fine, it happens.Move on.

[CoranMoran]

You had a great hand preflop.And you hand gretly improved after the flop.Without knowing his cards, you should feel very confident that your hand was best. And with this confidence, your concern should be with trying to get as much of you opponent's money into the pot as possible.The limiting part about this situation is that the stack sizes are small so there is not much room to use finesse.Because of this, pushing in all your chips when you did is probably the most appropriate idea.It was very unlikely that he held a hand as good as he did.This is something that you could not have been expected to predict.But even with his good hand, you were still the slight favorite in this situation.This emphasizes the fact that you were correct in batting big with your cards.--cnm

[wrto4556]

Why didn't you go all in before the flop?Just looking for some action?

[Smasharoo]

Why didn't you go all in before the flop?Just looking for some action?I was going to ask that too, but didn't want to see an argument about being able to play well postflop with less than 10xBB erupt so I let it go.See, I'm kinder and gentler allready.

[Suited_Up]

I think you did fine also. If you go all in pre-flop... you win 300... you're still alive, but you don't double up either. The raise was big enough to get a weaker hand to call you if you were stealing... but you just got the wrong flop.

[RtherBNvegas]

Ya i would have gone all-in pre-flop with that hand get 300 chips out of it and see what happens.There was definatley nothin wrong with the way you played it either. Would have been more profitable your way anyway. I really think that the BB made a terrible call there for sure. But hey, he got really lucky with his hand, it happens. Really think you played it well. There is no way you think your hand is bad after the flop, great place to push it all in. Just wait for the next tourney and break him next time he makes such a stupid call. I mean maybe if he was deep stacked I could see him call but not in this situation

[Smasharoo]

I think you did fine also. If you go all in pre-flop... you win 300... you're still alive, but you don't double up either.Only if you know the SB is going to fold. When you're less than 10x the BB you should be pushing with any hand you'd open with.Very basic small stack play theory.

[wrto4556]

Smasharoo said:

I think you did fine also. If you go all in pre-flop... you win 300... you're still alive, but you don't double up either.Only if you know the SB is going to fold.  When you're less than 10x the BB you should be pushing with any hand you'd open with.Very basic small stack play theory.

Agreed...Say you have 1,000 in chips with the blinds at 50/100. You raise 4xbb to protect your hand....thats half your stack! You might as well move all in...basic short stack theory.And someone said: "bad flop"...That's almost the best you can do with AKs. Full house, trips, and flush are DREAM flops. They happen, but top-pair top kicker with flush draw will do...

[DwayneWayne]

You played the hand fine....you put in 33% of your stack anymore you should be pushing. Perfect flop...just very unlucky.

[holman3rd]

DwayneWayne said:

You played the hand fine....you put in 33% of your stack anymore you should be pushing.  Perfect flop...just very unlucky.

I don't think the small blind's pre-flop call was nearly as bad as most are making it out to be. Personally, I'd fold rather than call 40% of my stack with just J-7. But, we really need more info. For all we know, the SB could have easily put the button on a steal. Given that the SB was getting 2 to 1 on his call, it doesn't seem that outrageous. He's only in really bad shape against an overpair. Obviously, I know nothing about how the button plays, but it would seem reasonable that he may have limped with a QQ/KK/AA.Still, if I had put the button on a steal and I'm the SB, i'm either pushing or folding. That said, sure, a call doesn't seem like the right play, but it's not THAT bad.As for the button's play, I favor either an all-in or a limp. With less than 10x the big blind, I'd push. Also, with the small blind cold-calling preflop with 40% of his stack, he was essentially pot committed, which severely limited the button's folding equity. In addition, the problem with the button going all-in post flop was that he probably was only getting called with a better hand. The SB's post-flop check either says 1) I'm trapping you, or 2) I have nothing. If he's trapping you, you're screwed. If he has nothing, well, you just won with the best hand. So, I push all-in preflop and hopefully knock crappy hands like J-7 out. And no, in THAT spot, I do not want J-7 calling me. He still has 2 live cards and is only a 2 to 1 dog to putting me on the rail. All that said, I don't mean to be hyper-critical of how this was played. I'm not sure what the "ideal" play would be---just wanted to express my thoughts on how I would have p layed it. In the end, I would have been happy to take down the blinds with that hand. I'm a little surpised that the BB folded after the SB called. He must have been in really bad shape with the pot laying 4 to 1. Then again, I don't know his stack size, so perhaps that was a factor.

[Smasharoo]

Still, if I had put the button on a steal and I'm the SB, i'm either pushing or folding. That said, sure, a call doesn't seem like the right play, but it's not THAT bad. Button pushes on the flop with any two cards, so SB can get away if he misses the flop entirely, but can call if he hits it at all.I think the SB play is fine here. If the short stack is going to let you take a flop where you know he's committed if you hit and it's cheap to fold if you miss it you have to take a look.

[holman3rd]

Smasharoo said:

Still, if I had put the button on a steal and I'm the SB, i'm either pushing or folding. That said, sure, a call doesn't seem like the right play, but it's not THAT bad.  Button pushes on the flop with any two cards, so SB can get away if he misses the flop entirely, but can call if he hits it at all.I think the SB play is fine here.  If the short stack is going to let you take a flop where you know he's committed if you hit and it's cheap to fold if you miss it you have to take a look.

I respectfully disagree. I don't think it's a good play to call off 40% of your chips with Jack high on the hope that the flop hits you. You basically have no folding equity, as both you and the button are now essentially pot committed. What's worse, if you do see a flop and fold to a bet, you are left with a stack size that is very hard to work with.

[Smasharoo]

I respectfully disagree. I don't think it's a good play to call off 40% of your chips with Jack high on the hope that the flop hits you. You basically have no folding equity, as both you and the button are now essentially pot committed. What's worse, if you do see a flop and fold to a bet, you are left with a stack size that is very hard to work with.It's not 40% of your chips. It's 40% of the small stack's chips.We'd assume the SB's stack is by definition larger than the small stack, no? It's a final table of 22 people entering, the small stack is at 1500. If we assume a normal structure, there are probably 22,000 chips in play at least. You make this call with any two cards if you have the small stack well covered because you know he's committed allready and has made a weak steal attempt that should have been a push. You have to capitalize on that mistake if you can.

[Wilderness]

Smasharoo said:

You make this call with any two cards if you have the small stack well covered because you know he's committed allready and has made a weak steal attempt that should have been a push.  You have to capitalize on that mistake if you can.

But in the original post, it was stated that the SB only began the hand with 2000 chips to the small-stacks 1500; therefore I don't think its right for the SB to make that call for so much of his stack, hoping to hit the flop. I believe that was the point holman was making.If the SB has him well covered I think you are right, but that's not the case.

[holman3rd]

Smasharoo said:

I respectfully disagree. I don't think it's a good play to call off 40% of your chips with Jack high on the hope that the flop hits you. You basically have no folding equity, as both you and the button are now essentially pot committed. What's worse, if you do see a flop and fold to a bet, you are left with a stack size that is very hard to work with.It's not 40% of your chips.  It's 40% of the small stack's chips.We'd assume the SB's stack is by definition larger than the small stack, no?  It's a final table of 22 people entering, the small stack is at 1500.  If we assume a normal structure, there are probably 22,000 chips in play at least.    You make this call with any two cards if you have the small stack well covered because you know he's committed allready and has made a weak steal attempt that should have been a push.  You have to capitalize on that mistake if you can.

Sorry, must have had a brain f@rt or something. Wow, I was way off....long day. Ok, sure, smooth call makes even more sense now. SB starts with 2,000 and has already put 100 in. He has 1900 left, and it's another 400 to call, so that's about 21% to call. Given that, and the fact that he was getting 2 to 1 against a possible steal attempt, I still think the SB's play wasn't that bad. Sure, he got lucky, given that he was the underdog going in. But, that's poker and doesn't mean his call was bad.

[Smasharoo]

But in the original post, it was stated that the SB only began the hand with 2000 chips to the small-stacks 1500; therefore I don't think its right for the SB to make that call for so much of his stack, hoping to hit the flop. I believe that was the point holman was making.I think it is.Especially if he's at 2,000 and there's 22,000 in play. You have to defend here against such a weak raise. If you don't hit the flop you're on the button with 1500. If you fold you're on the button with 1900 but the player to your right now has 1800 and when he bets into you you need much better cards to see a flop.This flop is relatively cheap all things considered, and you act first if you hit the flop. Against a player who makes such a weak raise here your fold equity, which normally would be zero, is not insubstantial.Dunno. I'd call here most of the time, and be scratching my head over why he didn't push instead.

[Wilderness]

That's true, I didn't consider it like that. Although I'm still not sure that's the right play.