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Correct Lay Down At Ft $12 180-man Sng Stars


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#1 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:49 AM

OK. I laid this down thinking I am 5/6 and short stack is short, and blinds are about to get him. Generally I would open shove this in this spot and with stack sizes. (bad??) but decided to pickup the extra ~$30 (2.3x buy-in). Is this bad play/mentality??Posted Imageonce a cow has a taste for violence, it reverts. it becomes feral.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t2500/t5000 ante t500 - 6 playersCO Messi2007: t3,169 Button parsian.ir: t56,630 SB mihahaus: t65,320 BB RenRad 01: t66,766 UTG Hero: t29,796 UTG+1 mcginnis701: t48,319 Preflop: (t10,500) Hero is UTG with :club: :ts (6 players)Hero folds, 3 folds, mihahaus raises to t15000, RenRad 01 folds, mihahaus collected t13000
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#2 Mills

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 12:16 PM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on Sunday, December 5th, 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

OK. I laid this down thinking I am 5/6 and short stack is short, and blinds are about to get him. Generally I would open shove this in this spot and with stack sizes. (bad??) but decided to pickup the extra ~$30 (2.3x buy-in). Is this bad play/mentality??Posted Imageonce a cow has a taste for violence, it reverts. it becomes feral.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t2500/t5000 ante t500 - 6 playersCO Messi2007: t3,169 Button parsian.ir: t56,630 SB mihahaus: t65,320 BB RenRad 01: t66,766 UTG Hero: t29,796 UTG+1 mcginnis701: t48,319 Preflop: (t10,500) Hero is UTG with :club: :ts (6 players)Hero folds, 3 folds, mihahaus raises to t15000, RenRad 01 folds, mihahaus collected t13000
Looks like a pretty clear fold to me.. Always take the $EV in spots like this.

#3 rrumsey

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:53 PM

i would shove. with the shorty in the hand everyone will be extra tight given him. and the effective stacks are all so short that we gain a decent amount by pushing and taking down the blinds and antes. you add 30% to your stack by shoving and taking it down. and the shortie is so short that we expect to be ahead of his range when he calls. this would be way different if someone could call you light, but the ranges given the stacks i think it is a good push.do you have sng wizard? plug it into there. if not im sure someone else does.
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#4 MaxStPolish

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:54 PM

Fold 100% imo. I think I'd need at least sixes or sevens or AQ+ to shove in this specific situation.Disclaimer: i am a nit

#5 Donnie Ray

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:36 PM

ipits

#6 Mills

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:25 PM

View Postrrumsey, on Sunday, December 5th, 2010, 4:53 PM, said:

i would shove. with the shorty in the hand everyone will be extra tight given him. and the effective stacks are all so short that we gain a decent amount by pushing and taking down the blinds and antes. you add 30% to your stack by shoving and taking it down. and the shortie is so short that we expect to be ahead of his range when he calls. this would be way different if someone could call you light, but the ranges given the stacks i think it is a good push.do you have sng wizard? plug it into there. if not im sure someone else does.
Yea, but so what? This has more to do with $EV vs cEV IMO. If we take down the pot here we increase our stack by about 10k... does this really do that much in the way of helping us win the thing? If we get called we have to hold our breath that we are flipping when we can fold and wait for the mini to bust and collect our money.

#7 FaTa10ne

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:31 PM

View Postrrumsey, on Sunday, December 5th, 2010, 6:53 PM, said:

i would shove. with the shorty in the hand everyone will be extra tight given him. and the effective stacks are all so short that we gain a decent amount by pushing and taking down the blinds and antes. you add 30% to your stack by shoving and taking it down. and the shortie is so short that we expect to be ahead of his range when he calls. this would be way different if someone could call you light, but the ranges given the stacks i think it is a good push.do you have sng wizard? plug it into there. if not im sure someone else does.
Ahead of his range? If he calls we are at best a minimal favorite... we will never be much ahead of any 2 cards with 22

#8 HighwayStar

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:42 PM

This is really close. I'm never folding 55 and probably not 44. 33 and 22 are reasonably lower in the overall ranking of hands to merit possibly folding them here. Easiest to get someone to run it through Sng wizard then add about 5% more hands since that program is stupidly nitty. I also think that by default it will massively overestimate how often the tiny stack gets it in here.Interesting note: Hands that are better (by pokerstove ranking of hands) than 22:Posted Image
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#9 rrumsey

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:29 AM

View PostFaTa10ne, on Sunday, December 5th, 2010, 9:31 PM, said:

Ahead of his range? If he calls we are at best a minimal favorite... we will never be much ahead of any 2 cards with 22
we are shoving with FE and if he calls and it is a flip that is still a massive favorite to us overall bc he has to call to make it the flip. we still have FE and in the 180 mans it is hard to profit longterm ( damn near impossible) without making the top 3. its so top heavy.
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#10 HighwayStar

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:54 AM

View Postrrumsey, on Monday, December 6th, 2010, 11:29 AM, said:

we are shoving with FE and if he calls and it is a flip that is still a massive favorite to us overall bc he has to call to make it the flip. we still have FE and in the 180 mans it is hard to profit longterm ( damn near impossible) without making the top 3. its so top heavy.
For sure but tiny stacks like this at a FT warp the difference between $EV and chip EV a lot and that's all that matters.I'd probably almost always shove this in game anyway but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not theoretically optimal. - that said, people call way tighter than optimal so you can get away with shoving more than you should.The thing that most influences my range here is the nature of the BB. Partly if he can easily afford the call or not, partly if he's a decent player. You can get away with a lot more against weaker opponents. There are rare opponents who won't fold 75o here who I am tightening up against.
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#11 outsider13

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:05 AM

Posted ImageInterestingly, it's less profitable with more balanced stacks and no shorty. It's also less profitable if you tighten up the shorty, if you think he's the type to try and ICM fold.

#12 Mercury69

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:06 AM

Fold.
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#13 outsider13

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:27 AM

View PostMercury69, on Monday, December 6th, 2010, 9:06 AM, said:

Fold.
It's settled then.

#14 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:12 AM

Thanks for the replies. I did nto have time yesterday to run the hand through SNG Wizard, but recreated it here at work, and then realized Jeff already did it and posted it (Thanks!). I got the same results even after doing as Highway suggested and adding an extra 4% to everyone. Don't know if this makes any difference, but SB (mihahaus) started the FT 8/9, and was shoving a ton, and getting everyone to fold. The one time someone got tired of him shoving and called, he had AKoff. Other than that, everyone was playing pretty tight. BB (RenRad 01) who was the big stack, was a Supernova, so I am assuming he knew his shit. (He actually won this tourney, and mihahaus came in 2nd). Basically I was thinking that the odds to move up in pay was better to wait, rather than to shove and hopefully pickup the blinds/antes, which could have put me in better shape to try and make a deeper run. It turned out that shorty actually caught a hand, and by the time he got blinded out, I was practically out of chips, and by not shoving my 22, I actually sealed my fate at 5th. Looking back, I wish I would have shoved here, for the reasons rrumsey and highway suggested. If I would have been deeper at 45k or so, then laying this down UTG might have been a better fold. I guess it is the same mentality of "I am a few people away from the bubble, but in bottom 3rd. Should I play or fold just to min-cash".
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#15 HighwayStar

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:31 AM

When I said 5% I meant take what sng wizard gives you and shove 5% more. From what I've seen you can probably tighten up the default calling ranges that program gives tooeg - utg +1 in the screenshot jeff posted - says he's calling off 8.7% which is 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo. I don't think many people call off KTs and maybe a few other hands in that range here.edit - and the BB - 22% = 66+,A3s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo. I doubt even renrad who is a decent reg from memory is calling off all of those hands..
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#16 outsider13

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:05 AM

View PostHighwayStar, on Monday, December 6th, 2010, 12:31 PM, said:

When I said 5% I meant take what sng wizard gives you and shove 5% more. From what I've seen you can probably tighten up the default calling ranges that program gives tooeg - utg +1 in the screenshot jeff posted - says he's calling off 8.7% which is 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo. I don't think many people call off KTs and maybe a few other hands in that range here.edit - and the BB - 22% = 66+,A3s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,A8o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo. I doubt even renrad who is a decent reg from memory is calling off all of those hands..
8.7% is also this according to wizPosted ImageAnd I agree that you can should tighten up the default ranges, but that is also assuming that most people are good at poker and understand shove fold. Typically they aren't too far off. If you tighten up the BB to 13%, it's still a -$ev shove, but just slightly under neutral. Based on Shags last post though, you could probably give him less than the default -.05% edge based on chip counts. If he has no edge, he should be pushing neutral to slightly -ev spots.

#17 JSpencer

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:45 PM

Snap Fold for me.And I am not a nit by any sense of the word.

#18 Jam-Fly

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 08:21 AM

short stack aside, my brain tells me shoving here with 22 6handed is bad anyways. I think it's theoretically a fold, but depending how the table was going, I may push here in real time. But yeah, I think it's optimal to fold
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