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#41 colonel Feathers

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:56 AM

View PostMercury69, on Wednesday, June 29th, 2011, 7:56 AM, said:

Is this fuckin' park open yet? I want to combine it with a trip to Cleveland's R&R HOF (also a Creationist museum). I am stoked to see who I will be paired up with on the Ark.
Id love to see the ark built, as long as the dimensions are accurate enuf to fit 2 of every animal in existence on board.
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#42 speedz99

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 07:39 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Tuesday, December 21st, 2010, 2:41 PM, said:

Reminds me of the whole Baker fiasco. He was accused of overbooking his hotels and charging a lot in his Bible land park or something.In the same year, Milkin was found guilty for stealing $200 million from people who expected all their money back with interest. He was sentenced to 2 yearsHypocrisy; thou knowest no shame.

View Postvbnautilus, on Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 7:49 AM, said:

That's a nice whitewashing of what Bakker did. He told people he was raising money to build a hotel. People who gave him money were supposed to have memberships that gave them a hotel room in the hotel. He raised twice as much money as he needed to build the hotel, kept the rest of the "donations" for himself, and then... never built the hotel. He defrauded thousands of people. Some of that money was also used to keep his secret lover quiet. We wanted to "get him" not because he was a Christian, but because he was a hypocrite, preaching morality while embezzling and philandering. (Also he was only in jail for five years.)

View PostBalloon guy, on Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 10:23 AM, said:

How long was Milkin in jail?And how much did he bilk people out of?And who was expecting a return on their 'donation?

View Postvbnautilus, on Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 11:48 AM, said:

Why are we comparing a noted philanthropist (Milken) to a slimy charlatan (Bakker)? As part of Milken's plea deal he paid back the investors, and paid a huge fine to the SEC, that's why his sentence was reduced. He paid out over 1 billion dollars. Bakker paid back no one. He actually still owes millions in personal income taxes.

View PostBalloon guy, on Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 1:46 PM, said:

Again...Where did this money come from?And what was the implied purpose of every penny given to him, now compare that to the purpose of the money given to Baker.And he's dead, so only a democrat can get his money now.

View Postvbnautilus, on Wednesday, December 22nd, 2010, 3:14 PM, said:

Jim Bakker is not dead.
This was quite an enjoyable exchange.
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#43 Balloon guy

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:40 AM

View Postspeedz99, on Saturday, July 16th, 2011, 8:39 AM, said:

This was quite an enjoyable exchange.
I agree.BTW here's the hotel that never got builtPosted ImageAnd Milken did pay out $1.1 billion, problem is that he made over $2 billion, and his Drexel involvement etc probably cost some people a few more $billion and he only had to served 22 months of his 5 year termBakker stole $3-4 million and served over 5 years in jail of a 45 year term and still owes the IRS $6millionso the lesson is, if you are going to steal money, don't be a Christian, because they will get 10 times the punishment. But if you are not a Christian, then you can keep most of the money, serve very little time and be called a philanthropist even though all the money you donated came from illegal means.
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#44 speedz99

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:14 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Saturday, July 16th, 2011, 9:40 AM, said:

so the lesson is, if you are going to steal money, don't be a Christian, because they will get 10 times the punishment.
You know, you should really be agreeing with vb here. As he said, someone who commits fraud under the guise of religion does get much more bad press, but it's for a good reason. It's because their fraud fucks with peoples' faith, not just their wallets. I have no idea why you, of all people, wouldn't be more angry at someone pretending to be religious in order to steal money from people just wanting to do right by god as opposed to just a random scam artist.
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#45 Balloon guy

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 11:40 AM

View Postspeedz99, on Saturday, July 16th, 2011, 12:14 PM, said:

You know, you should really be agreeing with vb here. As he said, someone who commits fraud under the guise of religion does get much more bad press, but it's for a good reason. It's because their fraud fucks with peoples' faith, not just their wallets. I have no idea why you, of all people, wouldn't be more angry at someone pretending to be religious in order to steal money from people just wanting to do right by god as opposed to just a random scam artist.
The issue was that these two people were going to jail at the same time. The outcry over Bakker was disproportionate to the outcry over Milken.I get what you mean about him being a huge negative for the Christian message, but that's really only from a marketing perspective.Its funny but I was a young union heavy equipment operator at the time of this whole fiasco, and everyday at lunch I would get ribbed by the guys for 'giving money to Jim Bakker' since I had a Fish on my VW at the time. I didn't actually ever watch Jim Bakker or any of TBN and never have.I told them the same thing each time. I give my money to God, if someone like Jim Bakker diverted it somewhere else, that's on him. God isn't desperate for my money, He is desperate for my heart.Jim Bakker is a tiny nothing when it comes to the ability that God has to reach people who are willing to hear Him. So from that perspective I don't get worked up over the Bakkers or Swaggerts of the Christian faith. When a person seeks with an honest heart, they will find God because God wants to be found.
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#46 timwakefield

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 01:04 PM

Speaking of honesty, this seems like a more honest picture of the Heritage Tower. Although it looks pretty nice from your side (and even looks pretty okay from mine, just in disrepair), it was apparently never actually finished. So whether or not we can accurately say that it has "been built" is, I think, debatable.Posted Image
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#47 Balloon guy

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 01:41 PM

View Posttimwakefield, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 2:04 PM, said:

Speaking of honesty, this seems like a more honest picture of the Heritage Tower. Although it looks pretty nice from your side (and even looks pretty okay from mine, just in disrepair), it was apparently never actually finished. So whether or not we can accurately say that it has "been built" is, I think, debatable.
Ahh but what VB espoused was that the money went into PTLs coffers and as he said "They never built the hotel".The fact that the building was just short of finished shows that they did in fact build it, it just hadn't reached a point of occupancy yet. So technically you are right, it didn't open, but VB can't say they never built it now can he?
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#48 timwakefield

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:24 PM

I think it depends on our definition of "built." Do we consider it built when it comes to resemble the architectural plans (as it apparently does now)? Maybe. But do we consider it built when all they've done is laid the foundation? Or just built the steel structure for the first 3 floors? Probably not. So the fact that it appears from the outside to be a livable, complete building still leaves room for us to debate whether or not it has been "built." The only information I could get on it was that it was "unfinished." Looks finished outside, but maybe there are tons of walls missing inside and it has no wiring or plumbing? I'm just speculating on what "unfinished" could mean, and I'm also suggesting that it might be somewhat incorrect to call it "built" if it is lacking such necessities. I'm just nitpicking, but we might more accurately say that it has been "partially built."But I still think the picture I used is more accurate or "honest" than the one you used. Yours makes it look like it could be a sprawling, popular hotel. Mine shows that it is abandoned and run down.
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#49 Balloon guy

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 06:58 PM

View Posttimwakefield, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 5:24 PM, said:

I think it depends on our definition of "built." Do we consider it built when it comes to resemble the architectural plans (as it apparently does now)? Maybe. But do we consider it built when all they've done is laid the foundation? Or just built the steel structure for the first 3 floors? Probably not. So the fact that it appears from the outside to be a livable, complete building still leaves room for us to debate whether or not it has been "built." The only information I could get on it was that it was "unfinished." Looks finished outside, but maybe there are tons of walls missing inside and it has no wiring or plumbing? I'm just speculating on what "unfinished" could mean, and I'm also suggesting that it might be somewhat incorrect to call it "built" if it is lacking such necessities. I'm just nitpicking, but we might more accurately say that it has been "partially built."But I still think the picture I used is more accurate or "honest" than the one you used. Yours makes it look like it could be a sprawling, popular hotel. Mine shows that it is abandoned and run down.
Nit, meet pickvb made the case that they raised money, the money did not go to the construction of a hotel but to line the pockets of a single man.Do you agree with vb?I said they did build the hotel, you yourself posted a picture of a hotel that was much closer to finished than it is to not startedDo you agree with that?
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#50 timwakefield

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:02 PM

I myself said I was nitpicking. I thought it was simply an interesting linguistic question: at what point is a structure considered "built?"My main and best point was that your image of the Tower was dishonestly pristine, and you failed to mention that it was never completed.
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#51 vbnautilus

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:18 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Saturday, July 16th, 2011, 12:40 PM, said:

The issue was that these two people were going to jail at the same time. The outcry over Bakker was disproportionate to the outcry over Milken.
Again, the outrage was because of the hypocrisy. Everyone already assumes stock traders are greedy bastards who will do everything they can to make more money, including finding loopholes and bending the rules. A preacher is holding himself to a higher standard and has broken a totally different kind of trust when he is found to be scamming and cheating everyone. Isn't that obvious?

#52 vbnautilus

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:26 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 7:58 PM, said:

Nit, meet pickvb made the case that they raised money, the money did not go to the construction of a hotel but to line the pockets of a single man.Do you agree with vb?I said they did build the hotel, you yourself posted a picture of a hotel that was much closer to finished than it is to not startedDo you agree with that?
He sold over 10,000 rooms. That hotel you are picturing has about 500 rooms in it. He didn't build what he promised. $3.4 million of the investors money went to Bakker himself while $250K went to Jessica Hahn to keep her silent.Anyways it is always silly to compare legal sentences since there are so many factors that go into them (jurisdictions, lawyers, etc). The difference here seems to mostly relate to Milken getting a plea deal for paying back lots of money.

#53 brvheart

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:27 PM

View Postvbnautilus, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 10:18 PM, said:

Again, the outrage was because of the hypocrisy. Everyone already assumes stock traders are greedy bastards who will do everything they can to make more money, including finding loopholes and bending the rules. A preacher is holding himself to a higher standard and has broken a totally different kind of trust when he is found to be scamming and cheating everyone. Isn't that obvious?
But BG isn't talking about the morality of the issue. He is talking about how in the sight of the LAW it shouldn't matter, since "preachers" aren't supposed to be singled out by the justice system for extra punishment.Isn't that obvious?

View PostiZuma, on 20 August 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

napa I was jesus christing suited, you guys just slipped in before me.

View PostEssay21, on 25 February 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

.

#54 vbnautilus

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:31 PM

View Postbrvheart, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 8:27 PM, said:

But BG isn't talking about the morality of the issue. He is talking about how in the sight of the LAW it shouldn't matter, since "preachers" aren't supposed to be singled out by the justice system for extra punishment.Isn't that obvious?
No, that's not all he is saying. He said "The outcry over Bakker was disproportionate to the outcry over Milken."(The legal comparison is pretty silly.)

#55 Balloon guy

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:05 PM

View Postvbnautilus, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 8:26 PM, said:

He sold over 10,000 rooms. That hotel you are picturing has about 500 rooms in it. He didn't build what he promised. $3.4 million of the investors money went to Bakker himself while $250K went to Jessica Hahn to keep her silent.Anyways it is always silly to compare legal sentences since there are so many factors that go into them (jurisdictions, lawyers, etc). The difference here seems to mostly relate to Milken getting a plea deal for paying back lots of money.
The hotel I showed was the one you said was never built
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#56 Balloon guy

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:09 PM

View Postvbnautilus, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 8:18 PM, said:

Again, the outrage was because of the hypocrisy. Everyone already assumes stock traders are greedy bastards who will do everything they can to make more money, including finding loopholes and bending the rules. A preacher is holding himself to a higher standard and has broken a totally different kind of trust when he is found to be scamming and cheating everyone. Isn't that obvious?
Everyone assumes stock traders are greedy and therefore when they steal we are expecting it?And this is a justification for you that allows you to now call him a philanthropist after destroying who knows how many people fortunes and putting almost a billion in his own pocket?I didn't know how deeply you believed in situational ethics. Now I know.
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#57 Balloon guy

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:16 PM

View Posttimwakefield, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 8:02 PM, said:

I myself said I was nitpicking. I thought it was simply an interesting linguistic question: at what point is a structure considered "built?"
'Never built' would probably never be linguistically confused for here's a structure with windows. ( Windows are not put in until deep into the construction, because they tend to break when iron beams are swinging around... )

Quote

My main and best point was that your image of the Tower was dishonestly pristine, and you failed to mention that it was never completed.
But was it never completed because Bakker never meant to have it completed? Or because the entire project failed after Bakker's fall from grace?You are trying to defend vb's case that 'the building was never built' when he was arguing that Bakker was taking the money for himself. And now you are trying to say that not having the microwaves installed is the same thing as diverting all the funds into a private slush fund.Now why would you desire to go this far to make this indefensible position?Either A: You feel immensely sorry for vb and are trying desperately to defend him no matter how ridiculous your argument. Or B: You cannot accept that anyone on your side can be wrong against anyone on my side. Which is bordering on psychotic behaviour.So are you in love with vb, or crazy?
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#58 vbnautilus

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:35 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 9:05 PM, said:

The hotel I showed was the one you said was never built
It's not what he promised to build. I can't quite understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying its ok to sell 10,000 rooms to a 501-room hotel as long as you are preaching christianity? You really think Milken got a lesser sentence because he was jewish? How does that work?

View PostBalloon guy, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 9:09 PM, said:

Everyone assumes stock traders are greedy and therefore when they steal we are expecting it?And this is a justification for you that allows you to now call him a philanthropist after destroying who knows how many people fortunes and putting almost a billion in his own pocket?I didn't know how deeply you believed in situational ethics. Now I know.
I was not comparing their moral transgressions; I was explaining the public's reactions to them, since you said you did not understand why there was outrage at one and not the other. But if I were to compare their moral transgressions, I would probably put more weight on what Bakker did. He stole more than money from people.

#59 Balloon guy

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:16 AM

View Postvbnautilus, on Sunday, July 17th, 2011, 10:35 PM, said:

It's not what he promised to build. I can't quite understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying its ok to sell 10,000 rooms to a 501-room hotel as long as you are preaching christianity?
Okay, let's go with this and see what we find...

Quote

From 1984 to 1987, Bakker and his PTL associates sold $1,000 "lifetime memberships", which entitled buyers to a three-night stay annually at a luxury hotel at Heritage USA. According to the prosecution at Bakker's later fraud trial, tens of thousands of memberships had been sold, but only one 500-room hotel was ever completed. Bakker "sold" more "exclusive partnerships" than could be accommodated, while raising more than twice the money needed to build the actual hotel.
So Bakker built a 500 room hotel, and promised people could stay there for 3 nights a YEAR.That would allow him to sell (500*365)/3Which is over 60,000 membershipsAnd Bakker raised more money than the cost of the hotel? Why that is amazing. There is never need for any more money to run a 500 person hotel once it is built.I mean really. Someone IN AMERICA over booked a vacation property? When we all know that every person who ever buys vacation time will take all of his vacation time every year for ever. No one ever has a year they don't go on vacation. Especially a paltry 60,000 families a year sample size.And this is course is more than a reasonable to go after Jim Bakker for destroying the faith of people, which is a crime punishable by years in prison.Destroying a person's retirement nest egg is a paltry crime in comparison.

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You really think Milken got a lesser sentence because he was jewish? How does that work?
I think Bakker got a severe one, and because the Milkin trialwas going on at the same time, I use the two for comparison. Hey people gave Milkin their life savings to try to double it or triple it. They signed something that said there would be risk. They took a chance, just like the people who gave their money to Madoff. People gave Bakker a tiny bit of their life savings, in exchange for time in a hotel that was built. Bakker went down because of a sex scandal ( which we know how the democrat party feels about their leaders having 'just sex'), but you can't give a guy time in jail for being a cheater.

Quote

I was not comparing their moral transgressions; I was explaining the public's reactions to them, since you said you did not understand why there was outrage at one and not the other. But if I were to compare their moral transgressions, I would probably put more weight on what Bakker did. He stole more than money from people.
$1,000 for a 3 day vacation is way more damaging than losing your retirement nest egg?I guess I missed 'high' math in Jr high.
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#60 timwakefield

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:00 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, July 18th, 2011, 12:16 AM, said:

But was it never completed because Bakker never meant to have it completed? Or because the entire project failed after Bakker's fall from grace?
I don't get you. It wasn't like, whoops he tripped and fell!The building was never completed because Bakker stole the money that was supposed to be used for it. It's impressive that he actually got a building up there, but again it literally might not have plumbing, electricity, and it very certainly does not and never did have a paid staff. It's not like the people who prepaid for the rooms almost got them.

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Either A: You feel immensely sorry for vb and are trying desperately to defend him no matter how ridiculous your argument. Or B: You cannot accept that anyone on your side can be wrong against anyone on my side. Which is bordering on psychotic behaviour.
Glad to see you've picked up on Henry's #1 most annoying habit. C. I was trying to make your statements about the building more accurate, since your weren't telling the whole story. People like Jim Bakker really piss me off, and I think it's bordering on psychotic behavior that you would try to defend his pretend-ministry-money-stealing-scheme.
Karl: She was a bit -- what's the word that you can use, cuz I don't wanna offend anyone?
Steve: Was she a homeless person?
Karl: Yeah but sort of mental homeless.




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