160 replies to this topic

[CorvairShaggy]

OK Got some time tonight. Explanations please.HAND 5aFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t75/t150 - 8 playersUTG Rivera_SP: t9,565 UTG+1 osobimba: t5,175 MP Naslund44: t2,950 HJ Brian1869: t2,925 CO mulder555: t9,730 Button Losthooligan: t3,845 SB lucia7391: t4,740 BB Hero: t6,095 Preflop: (t225) Hero is BB with (8 players)Rivera_SP folds, osobimba calls t150, 5 folds, Hero checksFlop: (t375) (2 players)Hero checks, osobimba bets t300, Hero calls t300Turn: (t975) (2 players)Hero checks, osobimba bets t450, Hero calls t450River: (t1,875) (2 players)Hero checks, osobimba bets t1200, Hero ???--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^ During rebuy period. Pretty standard players. A few too loose, but nothing out of the ordinary. Is he firing 3 bullets here, or did he flop the nuts. Should I have c/r the turn here?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------HAND 5bFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t300/t600 ante t50 - 9 playersSB Rivera_SP: t10,649 BB StangerMan69: t2,810 UTG hoffa4321: t6,538 UTG+1 rhcp9009: t23,951 MP lostbear08: t8,525 MP2 mulder555: t7,732 HJ Losthooligan: t4,795 CO MackB24LIFE: t10,640 Button Hero: t9,460 Preflop: (t1,350) Hero is Button with (9 players)4 folds, Losthooligan raises to t4745 and is all-in, MackB24LIFE folds, Hero raises to t9410 and is all-in, 2 foldsFlop: (t10,840) (2 players)Turn: (t10,840) (2 players)River: (t10,840) (2 players)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^ Proper ISO here from later position under 10BB shove? Player was tight, but A10 suited would be the lowest calling range here, correct?? ^^^-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------HAND 5cFeral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t600/t1200 ante t125 - 9 playersMP mika7700: t10,800 MP2 StangerMan69: t1,015 HJ leomessi1914: t23,419 CO rhcp9009: t51,888 Button lostbear08: t15,260 SB JimAnAce: t9,810 BB Dark Matter8: t12,545 UTG Venoruto: t16,845 UTG+1 Hero: t15,679 [b]Preflop: (t2,925) Hero is UTG+1 with (9 players)Venoruto folds, Hero raises to t2400, mika7700 calls t2400, StangerMan69 calls t890 and is all-in, 4 folds, Dark Matter8 raises to t12420 and is all-in, Hero ???---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^ Alright, here was tricky for me. UTG+1 with ~12BBs. Min-raise with intent of calling any shove here, but should I just open-shove here? Now WTF do I do??? Mika just got moved 3 hands before, and Dark just got moved to the table, so no reads. Should you always open-shove AQoff UTG and UTG+1 here, or min-raise, and stack off no matter what and hope and pray? What is the proper range here from UTG+1 to open with when you are ~12BBs. I assume kinda wide, because 2 hands later you will be 10 and under.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mr. Sparco]

5a: This is a huge flop - you very often have 15 outs here. (All spades, three kings, three more fours.) I probably raise the flop. Since it's still the rebuy period, you could even consider making a huge overshove if you know the guy likes to gamble. (If he's tight, you probably shouldn't, since you will have a lot less outs against the range he will call you with.) Not sure if I like a check-raise on the turn - we have showdown value now, so there's not too much reason to turn our hand into a semi-bluff. (Meaning: if he calls or shoves on a a check-raise, we're often behind and drawing. Then again, there may be some value in check-raising if he has the Ace-high flush draw or a 4.) The biggish bet on the river is a bit scary, but there are a ton of draws that missed and we haven't shown much strength, so it's tempting to hero call.5b: It depends on how tight he is, but normally I think that even against a reasonably tight 8BB stack you're far enough ahead of his range to reshove ATs. I'll leave it to HighwayStar to say if I'm wrong or not. :)5c: Did you read Bond18's article on stack sizes yet? (TrueAce posted the link on page 1.) If not, do so. With 13BB, I really don't like anything but an open shove here. As played, the fact that mika flats for 25% of his stack definitely makes some alarm bells go off, and the shover could also be strong, but I think there's way too much in the pot to fold.

[HighwayStar]

b) is good, my iso range depends a lot on the player. Could go way lower than ATs if the shover is decent. edit - 55+ A8s+ ATo+ is good if he's shoving optimally apparently, I thought it might be wider than this.c) if mika7700 is a very good player i'd fold, if he's like 95% of people in 3Rs 180s snap jam. Reason - if you see me flatting your open with that stack there, I have aces.edit - yea what sparco said, jam initially. I thought blinds were 400 /800 and i'm never folding regardless of mika at 600 1200. I don't think good players bother getting cute with this stack ever so mika could have all sorts. as for a) i'd probably hero call edit - and spazzing out on the flop isn't a mistake with this hand in a rebuy period (even in a 180)

[TrueAce13]

5a: yeh...i try to get a ton of chips in the middle b/c we flopped the world. Plus, it is in the rebuy period, if we brick, just rebuy...but lets build a stack5b: Def rejam there...especially since he doesn't even have 10bbs, his range should be even wider (if he is slightly decent) 5c: ;asldjf;sladjfl;asdjf READ THOSE ARTICLES! just PILE pre

[CorvairShaggy]

http://tworags.com/article_32.html Going to go back a re-read again. Too much to comprehend in first read thru, but I will keep re-reading them until it clicks. I learn better by experience, which I am slowly getting better and understanding more. Thanks again for the help. I'll post the results of hands 5a and 5c tonight.But, as far as hand 5a goes, would you play this type of flop more agressively (i.e. open 3/4 pot, c/r) or just shove it and hope for the best. Meh - After going back and re-reading Sparco/Highway/Trueace posts, I guess there is really no wrong way to play this, except the way I played it. I gamble when I shouldn't, and don't gamble when I should. LOL!!

[Mr. Sparco]

CorvairShaggy, on Friday, November 5th, 2010, 4:55 PM, said:

But, as far as hand 5a goes, would you play this type of flop more agressively (i.e. open 3/4 pot, c/r) or just shove it and hope for the best. Meh - After going back and re-reading Sparco/Highway/Trueace posts, I guess there is really no wrong way to play this, except the way I played it. I gamble when I shouldn't, and don't gamble when I should. LOL!!

Well, calling this flop is not terribad, it's probably still +EV. It's jut that raising (and possibly even shoving, depending on villain) are more +EV. The only thing truly horrible would be folding. :)One more reason why I like a raise, besides pure EV considerations: when you play draws like this one aggressively (especially stronger draws than just a naked flush draw or an open ended straight draw), once you will play at levels where players pay more and more attention, people will know that when you start getting chips into the pot, it does not necessarily mean that you have the stone cold nuts. Thus, they will be tempted to call you here (which is slightly +EV for you), but they will be just as tempted to call you when you do play the nuts aggressively (which is very much +EV for you). So think of spots like this as free opportunities to build a more aggressive image - that may not be super important yet at this level, but it will become more and more important as you start moving up.

[rrumsey]

HighwayStar, on Thursday, November 4th, 2010, 9:05 PM, said:

c) if mika7700 is a very good player i'd fold, if he's like 95% of people in 3Rs 180s snap jam. Reason - if you see me flatting your open with that stack there, I have aces.edit - yea what sparco said, jam initially. I thought blinds were 400 /800 and i'm never folding regardless of mika at 600 1200. I don't think good players bother getting cute with this stack ever so mika could have all sorts.

yah we need to be worried some of the time. its depends. but it shouldnt matter because we should be all in and it is not even close. we can maybe min open with AA.

[CorvairShaggy]

HAND 5aRiver: (t1,875) (2 players)Hero checks, osobimba bets t1200, Hero calls t1200osobimba showed , and lost with a pair of ThreesHero showed , and won (4275) with two pair, Kings and ThreesHero won t4275-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^ Here I did make the hero call. I figured he just fired a 3rd bullet at the end. He just open-called, so i figured some kind of high cards, possible small PP, and hit maybe 2-pair, but generally you can eliminate him hitting a set, because most of the time they generally bet bigger or just shove during the rebuy levels. He could have been a smart player and slow-played a set tho. Turn bet just looked tooo low for me. If he had a set or 2-pair he should have bet much bigger just in case I was flush drawing, which I was. If he had anything he should have bet bigger IMO, unless he flopped the nut flush. Again, river a brick, so too low. Thinking now he has a busted flush like me, but was kinda surprised at what he did have. Correct Analysis????----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- HAND 5bFeral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t300/t600 ante t50 - 9 playersSB Rivera_SP: t10,649 BB StangerMan69: t2,810 UTG hoffa4321: t6,538 UTG+1 rhcp9009: t23,951 MP lostbear08: t8,525 MP2 mulder555: t7,732 HJ Losthooligan: t4,795 CO MackB24LIFE: t10,640 Button Hero: t9,460 Preflop: (t1,350) Hero is Button with (9 players)4 folds, Losthooligan raises to t4745 and is all-in, MackB24LIFE folds, Hero raises to t9410 and is all-in, 2 foldsFlop: (t10,840) (2 players)Turn: (t10,840) (2 players)River: (t10,840) (2 players)Losthooligan showed , and lost with high card AceHero showed , and won (10840) with a flush, Ace highHero won t10840------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^ Just as you guys said. Pretty Standard. NH Me!!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------HAND 5cDark Matter8 raises to t12420 and is all-in, Hero raises to t15554 and is all-in, mika7700 foldsFlop: (t29,855) (3 players)Turn: (t29,855) (3 players)River: (t29,855) (3 players)StangerMan69 showed , and won (5285) with three of a kind, SevensDark Matter8 showed , and lost with high card AceHero showed , and won (24570) with a pair of QueensStangerMan69 won t5285Hero won t24570---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^ Even if I open-shoved here, action still would have been the same, except maybe have picked up Mika (MP) as well, but the other two were definitely calling. Bad opening by me, but still might would have won it in the end (IDK PS does have a way of rewarding bad play )----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So basically I was 1-1-1, which is better than 0-3. Thanks again for the explanations!

[CorvairShaggy]

HAND#6At the time, I was 6th in chips with about 47 people left. I was on a heater, and table had been pretty tight since the add-on break. Tighter than they usually are. Here is the hand:Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t600/t1200 ante t125 - 8 playersButton PortlyPig: t8,286 SB Mattkar: t11,180 BB inktrocity: t10,217 UTG Hero: t30,317 UTG+1 johnydeuces: t3,400 MP Omar Miscasa: t42,439 HJ ferchpxo: t20,549 CO GliskoCar: t9,024 Preflop: (t2,800) Hero is UTG with (8 players)Hero raises to t2400,^^^ Proper with 33 UTG?? I was thinking fold, but table was tight and they should have seen that I was catching excellent cards. Plan was really hope everyone folds, but would call off to the short stack. 5 folds, Mattkar raises to t11055 and is all-in, inktrocity folds,^^^ Allright, what to do. Here was my thinking. I am currently 6th. If I make this call, possible flip situation because he is shoving here with A10 at least. If I make the call and my PP holds up, I will be in 2nd with ~46 people to go. Should be easier to at least get ITM. If I lose the flip, I am risking 3:1 here, and I will go from top 1/3 left to about 2/3, and will leave me with about ~16BBs, which is not horrible. I could be dominated already by a bigger PP, in which I still would be left with ~16BBS. Basically, I am putting my tourney on the line here.Hero calls t8655Flop: (t24,310) (2 players)Turn: (t24,310) (2 players)River: (t24,310) (2 players)Mattkar showed , and won (24310) with two pair, Aces and NinesHero showed , and lost with two pair, Nines and ThreesMattkar won t24310---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------OK Is this just too much gambler mentality here?? I would not have called off a bigger stack, and I was thinking if it was a 3:1 chip stack call that would be the worst odds I am going to take. Is this proper thinking/odds or would it have been better to lay this down pre and not put myself in this position. Hindsight, I am thinking lay it down, but IDK.

[HighwayStar]

I'd just fold this UTG with the stacks at this table for the reason that what happened here, happens a lot.You are getting 1.81:1 so need 35.6 % equity against his range to call so it's very close a lot.

[CorvairShaggy]

HighwayStar, on Sunday, November 7th, 2010, 8:14 AM, said:

I'd just fold this UTG with the stacks at this table for the reason that what happened here, happens a lot.You are getting 1.81:1 so need 35.6 % equity against his range to call so it's very close a lot.

Same scenario, but you were CO. Still make the same reasoning, or is there no place for this reasoning this deep in???

[HighwayStar]

With stacks to act at this table you can just jam the CO. You can probably jam 16-17 BBs effective in the CO in general.

[HighwayStar]

CorvairShaggy, on Sunday, November 7th, 2010, 1:19 PM, said:

^^^ Allright, what to do. Here was my thinking. I am currently 6th. If I make this call, possible flip situation because he is shoving here with A10 at least. If I make the call and my PP holds up, I will be in 2nd with ~46 people to go. Should be easier to at least get ITM. If I lose the flip, I am risking 3:1 here, and I will go from top 1/3 left to about 2/3, and will leave me with about ~16BBs, which is not horrible. I could be dominated already by a bigger PP, in which I still would be left with ~16BBS. Basically, I am putting my tourney on the line here.

1. I dunno if he's shoving with AT here. A lot of people won't, mostly because it's extremely borderline. If his range goes down as far as that kind of hand then you definitely have a call here. 2. With 47 left don't consider getting in the money when making decisions at all. There are times to consider this but definitely not here.3. Going from the top 1/3 to 2/3 doesn't matter. Your stack does and your logic about making the decision to call leaving you with a reasonable stack is fairly sound.

[rrumsey]

hand 6 i will normally min open then fold. no need to gamble with at best a coinflip with this kind of stack imo. but PP's are almost always worth opening.

[CorvairShaggy]

Just in case anyone is following along in this thread trying to learn like me, I've been playing the $2.50+$0.20 54-man Super Turbo Short Stack SNGs on Full Tilt. You start with 300 chips (10 BBs) and after the first 3 hands (guys shoving ATC in the first few hands), it plays really similar to later stages of the $3 Rebuy (and I guess other tourneys as well). It has been good experience for recognizing shoving ranges, position ranges, variance, luckboxes, etc. It's a fairly cheap trainer, and if you get 1st, you win $48 and only takes about 45 mins to get that far.

[rrumsey]

CorvairShaggy, on Monday, November 8th, 2010, 8:00 PM, said:

Just in case anyone is following along in this thread trying to learn like me, I've been playing the $2.50+$0.20 54-man Super Turbo Short Stack SNGs on Full Tilt. You start with 300 chips (10 BBs) and after the first 3 hands (guys shoving ATC in the first few hands), it plays really similar to later stages of the $3 Rebuy (and I guess other tourneys as well). It has been good experience for recognizing shoving ranges, position ranges, variance, luckboxes, etc. It's a fairly cheap trainer, and if you get 1st, you win $48 and only takes about 45 mins to get that far.

if you have a good push fold game and an idea of icm you should kill these thingsi would say also that late against bad players look for some spots to minraise fold. and maybe even induce.but early ship like a champ

[riverrat]

CorvairShaggy, on Sunday, November 7th, 2010, 8:19 AM, said:

HAND#6At the time, I was 6th in chips with about 47 people left. I was on a heater, and table had been pretty tight since the add-on break. Tighter than they usually are. Here is the hand:Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t600/t1200 ante t125 - 8 playersButton PortlyPig: t8,286 SB Mattkar: t11,180 BB inktrocity: t10,217 UTG Hero: t30,317 UTG+1 johnydeuces: t3,400 MP Omar Miscasa: t42,439 HJ ferchpxo: t20,549 CO GliskoCar: t9,024 Personally I don't like the min raise at all here. Limping is questionable, but with 4 short stacks at the table if any of them have a hand you are forcing them to shove and then you are at best racing for 1/3rd of your stack. Your odds of hitting a set are 1 in 8. The only guys that can give you the right odds to get involved in this hand are guys you don't really want to tangle with. Other than folds, there is nothing good that can happen here. You are betting 2400 hoping to pick up a pot of just a bit more than that amount. Preflop: (t2,800) Hero is UTG with (8 players)Hero raises to t2400,^^^ Proper with 33 UTG?? I was thinking fold, but table was tight and they should have seen that I was catching excellent cards. Plan was really hope everyone folds, but would call off to the short stack. 5 folds, Mattkar raises to t11055 and is all-in, inktrocity folds,^^^ Allright, what to do. Here was my thinking. I am currently 6th. If I make this call, possible flip situation because he is shoving here with A10 at least. If I make the call and my PP holds up, I will be in 2nd with ~46 people to go. Should be easier to at least get ITM. If I lose the flip, I am risking 3:1 here, and I will go from top 1/3 left to about 2/3, and will leave me with about ~16BBs, which is not horrible. I could be dominated already by a bigger PP, in which I still would be left with ~16BBS. Basically, I am putting my tourney on the line here.Hero calls t8655Flop: (t24,310) (2 players)Turn: (t24,310) (2 players)River: (t24,310) (2 players)Mattkar showed , and won (24310) with two pair, Aces and NinesHero showed , and lost with two pair, Nines and ThreesMattkar won t24310---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------OK Is this just too much gambler mentality here?? I would not have called off a bigger stack, and I was thinking if it was a 3:1 chip stack call that would be the worst odds I am going to take. Is this proper thinking/odds or would it have been better to lay this down pre and not put myself in this position. Hindsight, I am thinking lay it down, but IDK.

[CorvairShaggy]

OK I have not played any of these for a few weeks because I was getting killed everywhere I turned on PS, and was having success at Tilt. I have been playing alot of $2, $5, and $10 54 man Super Turbos, and feel like I have really learned alot in shove/fold mode. Still not comfortable with the ATC shoves when position/stack sizes dictate it like they show on videos, but getting better at recognizing spots. I decided to give these a shot again, and the first one I played the other day I got 3rd for $198. (Also played a $8.80 $16k GTD and got 111/27xx and in a $12 180 got 15th.) I feel like I luckboxed my way in this tourney, so I am reviewing tonight and would like to post a few hands for discussion: HAND #7a Converted by the cows of Feral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t500/t1000 ante t100 - 9 playersMP2 jkomuto77: t9,905 HJ trombanator9: t8,200 CO Tok99: t6,100 Button Shscoach00: t5,925 SB Hero: t9,235 BB Mayuri-Sama: t2,027 UTG ibetyouwin8: t8,680 UTG+1 Sebi77: t10,716 MP Ventilatorrr: t24,450 Preflop: (t2,400) Hero is SB with (9 players)3 folds, jkomuto77 raises to t4000, 3 folds, Hero raises to t9135 and is all-in, Mayuri-Sama calls t927 and is all-in, jkomuto77 calls t5135Flop: (t21,097) (3 players)Turn: (t21,097) (3 players)River: (t21,097) (3 players)jkomuto77 showed , and lost with two pair, Sixes and DeucesHero showed , and won (21097) with two pair, Tens and SixesMayuri-Sama showed , and lost with two pair, Sixes and DeucesHero won t21097-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^ Here I feel this is standard, correct?? When I stoved this as shown, I was a slight dog to the short stack, and slight favorite to MP2. I went back with stove and gave MP2 a range of 77+,A9s+,ATo+ (which is how I would have played it, except I would have open shoved tho) and gave the shorty a 25% range (probably too tight, but he was VP 13 over 156 hands, so ...) and I was a slight favorite over biggie and a better favorite over the shorty. Now, as played, I personally would have called/shoved my SB with a range of 77+,A9s+,ATo+. Thoughts??? I feel like I am a bit too nitty at times, and trying to loosen it up a bit in these types of ~10-12bb calling/shoving spots.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CorvairShaggy]

HAND #7bNut Check. Played OK?Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t600/t1200 ante t125 - 8 playersUTG+1 geomi: t32,956 MP Hero: t21,347 HJ Clarenzo20: t6,000 CO fcemmen: t49,491 Button papafloren: t12,645 SB Yekim: t34,495 BB ijsklompje: t39,163 UTG Ventilatorrr: t33,991 Preflop: (t2,800) Hero is MP with (8 players)Ventilatorrr folds, geomi calls t1200, Hero raises to t3600, 5 folds, geomi calls t2400Flop: (t10,000) (2 players)geomi checks, Hero checksTurn: (t10,000) (2 players)geomi checks, Hero bets t3600, geomi foldsHero collected t10000

[HighwayStar]

in 7a the shorty should really call off ATC and is fairly irrelevant to any calculationsMP2s range is gonna usually not gonna be top x% of hands and is gonna vary a lot from player to player. I'd never fold here in game and it's probably correct to fold here against about 3% of opponents (complete guess). 7 is fine, you could bet the flop to start building against a few hands too. This way you might induce some bluffs. If you think the player isn't likely to reflex bet the turn when you check back you should probably be betting the flop most of hte time.

CorvairShaggy, on Wednesday, November 24th, 2010, 1:03 AM, said:

I personally would have called/shoved my SB with a range of 77+,A9s+,ATo+. Thoughts???

This is quite a hard range to derive since you are up against such varied ranges. In a vacuum I think this is just about okay.