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#41 riverrat

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 11:52 AM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on Monday, October 25th, 2010, 10:38 PM, said:

HAND #2aOK Here I made an iso shove against UTG donk-bet. Player just got moved to the table and with the min-raise he either was a donk (had one star) or was setting up for a shove/call shove. A9 suited was the bottom of my range here, and I was playing tight so I was trying to use that to my advantage. Got called by the button. He and I were in the top 10 just about the whole time, so I felt I was in trouble here. But, sometimes, you can get lucky. How off was my thinking here??Posted ImageYour converted hand, now with more cowbell.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t500/t1000 ante t100 - 9 playersUTG: t15,470 UTG+1: t12,474 MP: t8,340 MP2: t8,570 HJ: t9,425 CO: t18,727 (Hero)Button: t22,809 SB: t23,460 BB: t20,880 Preflop: (t2,400) Hero is CO with :5c :D (9 players)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to t2000, 3 folds, Hero raises to t18627 and is all-in, Button calls t18627, 3 foldsFlop: (t41,654) :D :qh :4h (2 players)Turn: (t41,654) :3d (2 players)River: (t41,654) :qc (2 players)Hero showed :3h :D, and won (41654) with a flush, Ace highButton showed :club: :jh, and lost with a pair of QueensHero won t41654-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hand #2bHere, I have been trying to stay out of these situations. I was reminded right after this hand that a 3x UTG raise was not necessary, so I know that is one strike. But, this deep, are you calling 55 off to 2 other shoves? I was just moved to this table, so no reads. I would have called off to the 1st shove, but the second shove made me feel like I was going to make a classic CorvairShaggy get-it-in in a bad flip situation (possibly dominated). After seeing the hand played out from the sidelines, I think this is just results-oriented thinking. The very next hand I found myself in the same spot, but with 44. I opened min-raise, and folded around to button who shoved 20k. Basically my stack vs his on 44. Just seemed like a bad EV spot to make that call. Thoughts??Posted ImageConverting hands till the cows come homePokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t600/t1200 ante t125 - 9 playersSB simakos: t24,043 BB jomotero: t9,808 UTG danielslick7: t19,335 UTG+1 Hero: t36,872 MP BAD-J0HN: t12,159 MP2 Spliff880: t9,509 HJ Aesah: t21,452 CO batraxos7: t22,594 Button Bubuii: t13,439 Preflop: (t2,925) Hero is UTG+1 with :ts :4h (9 players)danielslick7 folds, Hero raises to t3600, BAD-J0HN folds, Spliff880 raises to t9384 and is all-in, Aesah raises to t21327 and is all-in, 4 folds, Hero foldsFlop: (t25,293) :qh :5c :ts (2 players)Turn: (t25,293) :D (2 players)River: (t25,293) :jh (2 players)Spliff880 showed :3h :7s, and won (25293) with two pair, Sevens and ThreesAesah showed :club: :D, and lost with a pair of SevensSpliff880 won t25293
A couple of things. Your image doesnt mean a hell of a lot after the all in. You have a very suspicious UTG min raise and then a huge all in as a reraise. Unless you are playing this tournament like Tom Dwan on steroids I don't think anyone else is going to get involved in this hand. Image is very important at times, but with the way this hand is playing out you can kind of throw that out the window (you're either taking down the pot right there or isolating the initial raiser). Second, you mention that he has "one" star. For the most part guys with "any" stars play a ton of poker and generally know what they're doing min raising UTG. I would say that most times this particular guy's range has you crushed. Besides, his min raise was kind of perfect for you to smooth call and see a flop with the suited ace. Once the flop comes you can take control of the hand and you probably don't need a suck out to win it. A semi bluff should be just fine to take it down at that point.

#42 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:32 PM

View Postriverrat, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 2:52 PM, said:

A couple of things. Your image doesnt mean a hell of a lot after the all in. You have a very suspicious UTG min raise and then a huge all in as a reraise. Unless you are playing this tournament like Tom Dwan on steroids I don't think anyone else is going to get involved in this hand. Image is very important at times, but with the way this hand is playing out you can kind of throw that out the window (you're either taking down the pot right there or isolating the initial raiser). Second, you mention that he has "one" star. For the most part guys with "any" stars play a ton of poker and generally know what they're doing min raising UTG. I would say that most times this particular guy's range has you crushed. Besides, his min raise was kind of perfect for you to smooth call and see a flop with the suited ace. Once the flop comes you can take control of the hand and you probably don't need a suck out to win it. A semi bluff should be just fine to take it down at that point.
My thinking at the time was to take it down there, and I had the A as a backup. I understand now that this is incorrect thinking, but you do bring up a a good point about how to play it post though.
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#43 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:51 PM

View PostTehtoe, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 2:06 PM, said:

this is terrible, and completely incorrect.
Ehhhh, yes and no. I don't want to start a whole debate about hocus-pocus alignment of the moon/stars, etc. But In my 10 years of gambling, I have had many strange things that have happened that I cannot ignore. Can I base my play off of my gut feelings all the time. NO. Reason still has to be applied. But sometimes...... If I keep this belief and base my play off of this will I always be a terrible player? Probably so. If I learn and get better at the XXs and OOs and still go with my gut at times, can I be a better player? At this time I would say yes. We all have little quirks/tendencies/etc that makes sense to us, but not to everyone else. Am I a nut job? Maybe. Have I derailed this thread and gone way off topic. Absolutely.
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#44 Tehtoe

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 01:08 PM

Alrighty, have fun!

#45 donk4life

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 02:36 PM

Ya, like this morning. Usually I masturbate every morning, but today I just had a gut feeling I shouldn't. I'm glad I didn't, because there was no toilet paper to clean myself up with.The alignment of the moon and stars are very important in our decision making process.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#46 MaxStPolish

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 04:01 PM

I remember when I first started playing hold 'em ~8 years ago. I used to always play J6 off suit. It was "my" hand. I was a poor player. It's okay, I occasionally make posts about hands where I'm caught up in what "would have been". Once the comedown occurs, this is a obvious fold every time.

#47 tbrick412

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 08:06 PM

View Postdonk4life, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 5:36 PM, said:

Ya, like this morning. Usually I masturbate every morning, but today I just had a gut feeling I shouldn't. I'm glad I didn't, because there was no toilet paper to clean myself up with.The alignment of the moon and stars are very important in our decision making process.
you didnt even have a sock laying around?
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#48 rrumsey

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 08:56 PM

View Posttbrick412, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 9:06 PM, said:

you didnt even have a sock laying around?
this is becoming a true lesson in power poker boys and girls! :club:
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#49 riverrat

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 04:39 AM

Corvair, I think a lot of times you view poker too much from a gambler's perspective. You need to start ignoring that "gut" feeling. If your gut was based on very good reads that you had on the other players I would probably agree with you (it would at least help if your gut told you to make better decisions). You often put your whole stack at risk with no information at all other that what the gambler in you wants to do. Your gut seems to tell you to push w/A9 and AJ. Your one comment about your fallback being an ace is just ridiculous (sorry to be so blunt). You do realize that more often than not you will simply have the weaker ace in most of these situations right? If not, the other guy will probably have a pocket pair and your still getting your money in as a slight to big dog. I don't know about you but I don't see guys call all ins very often w/A8. Go back and read most of your posts on this site. I think you will see a trend. I cetainly have noticed a trend. I know you're trying to get better as we all are, but I seriously think that "gut feeling" play of yours is by far your biggest weakness.

#50 I_win_all

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 06:09 AM

I never get deep in these. Turbo structure kills my play. :/

#51 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 07:33 AM

View Postriverrat, on Thursday, October 28th, 2010, 7:39 AM, said:

Corvair, I think a lot of times you view poker too much from a gambler's perspective. You need to start ignoring that "gut" feeling. If your gut was based on very good reads that you had on the other players I would probably agree with you (it would at least help if your gut told you to make better decisions). You often put your whole stack at risk with no information at all other that what the gambler in you wants to do. Your gut seems to tell you to push w/A9 and AJ. Your one comment about your fallback being an ace is just ridiculous (sorry to be so blunt). You do realize that more often than not you will simply have the weaker ace in most of these situations right? If not, the other guy will probably have a pocket pair and your still getting your money in as a slight to big dog. I don't know about you but I don't see guys call all ins very often w/A8. Go back and read most of your posts on this site. I think you will see a trend. I cetainly have noticed a trend. I know you're trying to get better as we all are, but I seriously think that "gut feeling" play of yours is by far your biggest weakness.
Ohhh, that's no secret there. I am perfectly aware of the above flood gate. I am getting better at shutting the doors on it. 9 months ago when I started playing "seriously" I was making $100 depsoits weekly. Now, I am still playing off of the $100 deposit from July, and have cashed out a few times and made several sports bets with that money as well. Since June I am up ~$400 in .25NL mostly 50bb and some 100bb over about a 11k sample size. Not anything to brag about, and actually bad, but profit is profit. Cash games I am horrible at, but slowly improving, but past few months spending time on tourneys. As far as tourneys I am getting better and learning to control the spew. Most of the time I post bad hands here, but I am capable of making a good decisions from time to time. I may look like an absolute spewtard, but am getting better.As to calling off villains with weaker hands than AJ/A9 etc., in the $3 rebuy 180s when players get short stacked, generally under the 10bbs, you will see some stack off with any paint, and with hand 2a that is what I meant by having an A as a fallback. Now I am understanding why that is a bad thought. The other day I was deep in one, and I had A10 off and I folded it in a similar situation, and there was a respected player here that was railing me at the time and told me that was a bad fold. Difference was POSITION. I am starting to finally grasp that concept. I posted about this about 10 posts back. Problem is that I maybe get to play one a night. Total time I have playing in a week is maybe 20-25 hours over 7 days. So, on a time table, the learning curve is going to take longer. I may post some completly retarded reasoning for things, and you guys have been nice enough to respond and give points to why my reasoning is so idiotic. I do not have any people locally I can discuss strategy with. This is the only place I post, but read and watch videos online. I know how I learn, and it is by trial and error, and having people around to show me where I am going wrong. Generally, once I get a good foundation I can take off, but still builing that foundation. If I could sit down live with 5-6 people from this site and discuss poker over a few round of drinks, I guarantee you that the knowledge I could pick up in that couple of hours would be worth its weight in gold.I swear I am getting better, and my goal for the rest of the year is to get back in the black (pokerstars tourneys) and have a winning ROI. As long as you guys are nice enough to point out my idiotic ways and mentalities, I will continue to post and prove in time that I can become a winning player, not just a dumb-**** spewtard that I may appear to be. :club: Ohh and don't worry about being blunt with me. I would rather hear it like it is and not have it sugar coated. At least give me an explanation so i can understand.
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#52 outsider13

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 09:39 AM

You have to understand that the variance in these are a bitch. Even a good solid player in these will go on 100 buyin downswings easily (Avg buyin of $11 or 12). I really wouldn't be playing them without $1500 at least, although I would be mass tabling and not 1 tabling like yourself. With that being said, you have to be prepared to go A LOT of these without cashing. If you are playing 1 a night, it's not unthinkable for you to go a month without cashing. Its just the nature of turbo 180s. If I were you, I'd play something with a bit better of a structure that is a little less high variance.

#53 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 10:47 AM

View Postoutsider13, on Thursday, October 28th, 2010, 12:39 PM, said:

You have to understand that the variance in these are a bitch. Even a good solid player in these will go on 100 buyin downswings easily (Avg buyin of $11 or 12). I really wouldn't be playing them without $1500 at least, although I would be mass tabling and not 1 tabling like yourself. With that being said, you have to be prepared to go A LOT of these without cashing. If you are playing 1 a night, it's not unthinkable for you to go a month without cashing. Its just the nature of turbo 180s. If I were you, I'd play something with a bit better of a structure that is a little less high variance.
I am. I currently also play $6.50 18 man turbos on stars and tilt, and play around with $10 DONs, and some $3 turbos as well. Funny thing on tilt I am posting a +66% ROI on the $6.50 18 man turbos (includes 2 $10 Superturbo 54-man as well that I did not cash in, but included in ROI calculations) over 50 games. Stars...ehh not so much. I have cashed several times in the 180s the past 6weeks-2 months, with 2 2nd place finishes. I am not expecting to go ITM everynight. My expectations is to learn from my mistakes to where that way when I get knocked out I can blame it on variance, not me making a stupid 25BB shove with J10 off. I remember my first big tourney I ran deep in (1/4 mill I think. Posted here somewhere) after about 3 hours, I called a 30BB all in with like KJ or something stupid like that, because I did not know any better. That was a few months ago. I am using the 180's to learn how to properly play stack sizes, positions, put oppenents on hand ranges, etc. Yes, i could practice this at lower levels, but in doing so guys will show up with tons of garbage. In the $3 rebuy, my cash game and small tourneys currently off-set the loss that I take in the 180s.It is the best game I have found for my time and BR. The players are very good to very poor, so it is a nice mix. I am hoping I can work out alot of stupid errors in these, then maybe move up to some bigger (1/4 mill, and other similar MTT, not SNGs) and hopefully run deep in those. It's like playing the Neg-Os. I realistically have no shot at going deep in those, but where else can you play a small tourney with some really good players for only $10? Poker is a fun hobby for me. I do not have to use it for everday life, so at this point if it can be self-sufficient $$$-wise and I can learn and get better, that is a win for me.
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#54 KingJames

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 07:41 PM

I'm too nitty to play rebuys or turbosIn for reading sick 10bb strat tho
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#55 tbrick412

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 08:32 AM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on Thursday, October 28th, 2010, 1:47 PM, said:

I am. I currently also play $6.50 18 man turbos on stars and tilt, and play around with $10 DONs, and some $3 turbos as well. Funny thing on tilt I am posting a +66% ROI on the $6.50 18 man turbos (includes 2 $10 Superturbo 54-man as well that I did not cash in, but included in ROI calculations) over 50 games. Stars...ehh not so much. I have cashed several times in the 180s the past 6weeks-2 months, with 2 2nd place finishes. I am not expecting to go ITM everynight. My expectations is to learn from my mistakes to where that way when I get knocked out I can blame it on variance, not me making a stupid 25BB shove with J10 off. I remember my first big tourney I ran deep in (1/4 mill I think. Posted here somewhere) after about 3 hours, I called a 30BB all in with like KJ or something stupid like that, because I did not know any better. That was a few months ago. I am using the 180's to learn how to properly play stack sizes, positions, put oppenents on hand ranges, etc. Yes, i could practice this at lower levels, but in doing so guys will show up with tons of garbage. In the $3 rebuy, my cash game and small tourneys currently off-set the loss that I take in the 180s.It is the best game I have found for my time and BR. The players are very good to very poor, so it is a nice mix. I am hoping I can work out alot of stupid errors in these, then maybe move up to some bigger (1/4 mill, and other similar MTT, not SNGs) and hopefully run deep in those. It's like playing the Neg-Os. I realistically have no shot at going deep in those, but where else can you play a small tourney with some really good players for only $10? Poker is a fun hobby for me. I do not have to use it for everday life, so at this point if it can be self-sufficient $$$-wise and I can learn and get better, that is a win for me.
Really shouldnt be so hard on yourself. Keep playing and putting in volume and you will get it. Poker has a sharp learning curve, but it will come eventually.
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#56 Tehtoe

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 12:25 PM

brickahhh dropping the inspiration bombs

#57 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 08:00 PM

Allright, lets get this thread back on track. Tonight's lesson: STEALINGOK, getting to alot of bubbles in 180s and 90s tonight, so lets discuss this. Generally, when the blinds are 500/1000 and higher, play will get slower. The closer you get to the bubble, the slower things get. If you are sitting at ~20bb, how wide of a range are you opening here? I do not have any good hand examples of for this, but if you are opening from CO, with B, SB and BB all with average stack sizes compared to yours, are you just min-raising here with ATC, broadways, suited connectors, Ax, etc?? At the 500/1000 level, I am assuming you would open steal with maybe broadways, 88+s, AX suited, etc. (PLEASE correct me if my hand ranges are totally off.). If you get one of them to flat, then play hand as you normally would, since you would still be deep enough to fold if you brick the flop. If you do the above, and villains have a VP% of about 20 or lower and they 3-bet you or shove, then I am assuming here you are laying it down unless you have some type of premium hand, because basically at this point you are flipping for stacks, and at about 50th place and ~20bbs or better, you should have AA, KK, QQ, AK suited to flip for stacks here?If villain has a higher VP% of about say 40 or higher, are you still calling his shoves with a range of about A10+, 1010+?OR do you just not put yourself in aflip situation here, which leads me into the next step:BLIND VS BLINDOK. Now you are SB, with antes of 600/1200 with 125 antes. BB has a ~15VP%. What range are you raising with here, and do you ever just flat or always min-raise, 3x etc. I am assuming you are opening wider here, say 40% of your hand range, and if you get any action use above example as calling ranges.Now, you are BB. What are you calling a SB opening minraise with? Ax, broadways, suited connectors? What are you raising shoving with here? Remember, all of these examples we still have a ~20BB stack, with villains stack being similar, with a meh VP.CALLING A LATE POSITION SHOVEI have a good example here:HAND #3aPosted ImageFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t500/t1000 ante t100 - 8 playersMP Hamknight: t32,274 HJ transjetta: t22,225 CO Ghostsuit: t6,400 Button jolmnop: t9,640 SB Hero: t11,040 BB Bitinha1986: t32,115 UTG St3phenHendr: t13,515 UTG+1 cabezon plus: t17,280 Preflop: (t2,300) Hero is SB with :ts :5c (8 players)4 folds, Ghostsuit raises to t3000, jolmnop folds, Hero raises to t10940 and is all-in, Bitinha1986 folds, Ghostsuit calls t3300 and is all-inFlop: (t14,400) :D :qh :club: (2 players)Turn: (t14,400) :3h (2 players)River: (t14,400) :4h (2 players)Ghostsuit showed :D :qc, and lost with two pair, Queens and EightsHero showed :4h :3h, and won (14400) with two pair, Aces and EightsHero won t14400Before you guys start screaming "You stupid fu$%^ng jack-ass. You are still calling shoves with any A!!!" Let me explain, then tell me why my thinking is terrible, and not just saying I am terrible (Tehtoe :D ). Help me understand why this is terrible (Again, Tehtoe :D ). I am sitting with 10bbs here, so I do not have many orbits left. Villain is opening from CO, and with ~5 effective BBs, he could be opening with a wide range (correct?). His 3x is pointless, because you know he is getting this in no matter what. I decide to make the shove because: a) I have Ax, in which A could be ahead of his CO shove range. He does this from UTG UTG+!, I easy fold this :D b) I do have BB behind me. I shove, makes him tighten his calling range here, since he is making a 3:1 call here, I am gambling he does not wake up with a monster here, and crush us both to get a 55% chip increase. Basically a loose gamble, but with ~10bbs, do I really have much choise? 2 chairs are still empty at the moment. If they do not fill quick, then I get lose 25% of my stack due to blinds/antes in the next 8 hands. This is my explanation for this hand. Please explain where my thinking is wrong.CLOSE TO BUBBLE STEALING HAND RANGESAgain, here is another example:HAND #3bPosted ImageFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t1500/t3000 ante t300 - 7 playersUTG+1 zetapeta: t8,600 HJ ALABASTERMAN: t39,820 CO Hero: t21,615 Button PussyCat558: t31,551 SB bth247: t21,356 BB zmut: t41,989 UTG lopachok: t34,133 Preflop: (t6,600) Hero is CO with :qh :3d (7 players)2 folds, ALABASTERMAN folds, Hero raises to t21315 and is all-in, 2 folds, zmut calls t18315Flop: (t46,230) :D :club: :D (2 players)Turn: (t46,230) :5c (2 players)River: (t46,230) :ts (2 players)Hero showed :jh :7s, and lost with a pair of Deuceszmut showed :jh :D, and won (46230) with two pair, Threes and Deuceszmut won t46230Here, I got knocked out in 27th place. Tried to be more aggressive, but had not been stealing every orbit. Villains ahead of me have a ~30% VP over about 40 hands. I am sitting with about 5 effective BB. After analyzing this afterwards, not a good idea to give big stack a 2:1 odds here? Also, a little to weak on the hand range. Make this move with Ax, KQ suited, 77+? (again, hand ranges here may not be compatible. Please adjust)Wheew! I think this covers a wide range of stealing here. If I missed any examples, please add, and before calling me terrible, explain why I am terrible. After I grasp this concept, I feel like next stage is getting value, then I should have a good foundation to work with. I am shooting for a 12+ hour session tomorrow (unless wife drags me to some lame halloween party), so I am sure I will be adding a bunch more tomorrow. Thanks again for all help-full responses!!!!!
- - - - "It annoys me when players who play the tour for three years and don't do anything chalk it up to "variance." Yeah, has nothing to do with the fact that you suck... you are just unlucky." - - - - - Daniel Negreanu 1-21-2011 Blog

#58 SuperJon

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 08:22 PM

Don't have time to read through it all right now, but the A6 hand stands out a bit to me.The reason I think it's a bad shove has a lot to do with one of the things you need to improve on, and that's interpreting what our opponent(s) are doing based on stack size and action.Just make a note to yourself that whenever someone is really short, and they do ANYTHING other than shove or fold, they're going to have a big hand a majority of the time.

#59 tbrick412

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:09 PM

QJ is fine, but the A6 is really bad. he put in half his stack pre, so he's never folding. what does A6 play well against? 56s? you're just never beating anything.
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#60 Tehtoe

Tehtoe

    I like to hide in plain sight.

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:35 AM

lol @ calling me out. You posted something that is quite obviously incorrect (playing with your gut) and I told you it was terrible. I've helped out on so many hands of yours, but I'm not sure how you would want me to elaborate on the fact that playing by gut feelings is terrible...does that really need an explanation?




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