160 replies to this topic

[CorvairShaggy]

HighwayStar, on Saturday, January 15th, 2011, 6:01 AM, said:

a) a bigger stack relative to the short stacks...so losing any all in won't take a huge chunk of my stack (>half)b) clearer raise/calls when the short stacks shove...when the blinds have < 8 BBs you can never raise fold a hand...when they have 9-12, some spots become really gross and you might be getting accidentally exploited if you start folding. You can probably start raise/folding if you have a rock solid read that someone is tight....I wouldn't recommend getting into a habit of doing it though.c) you need a big stack in there you make opening better than just jamming. Someone you CAN raise/fold to with a hand like JT. When there are 4 to act and they all have < 12 BBs then open shoving these hands is way better.

OK. I have a pretty good understanding of calling ranges for short stacks, ~12BB or so, so for hand #10a I would call off because of this ^^^.BUT, where I get lost is when you make a min-raise from an early position and you have a big stack/comparable stack just snap-off like this, then your A10 does not feel too good anymore. I mean, Is he really wanting to get all his chips involved with an A-rag here? BUT, with that being said, I am quite aware that generally when I get a big/comfortable stack and getting under 40 players, things are so tight I will open up a bit and min-raise alot (mostly trying to steal), and fold in spots like this and call off short short stacks. My hand strength for calling depends on position/pot odds. So, If we had played more hands together he could have noticed that I had been min-raise/folding a few times, so he may make that play just to try and exploit me, but with only 4 hands....no. This may be advanced thinking or FPS which is something that I guess if ok to start seeing, but I am not at the level yet to start implementing it.WOW! Just went back and realized that there was no small stack at the table. Whoops! So, basically with Hand #10a, it is ok to just open jam A10/AJ 88-JJ from an early position in this spot with the relative stack sizes/blinds/antes, and just hope no one else has anything better, and only calls with worse? Leave the min-raising/call to shove (FPS) for hands like AK/AQ,QQ+?? Also looked back at some other hands, and A10 from early position late in these tourneys with a decent stack seems to be a problem hand for me.Yea, I think our discussion in the other thread inspired me to try some new things, but it helps to fully understand first. But, as they say, you got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.Also, when the antes kick in, as a general rule, you can do just a min-raise, correct? With Hand #10c, would it have been better here to 3x/4x to force some of the smaller stacks with medium-range hands into a shove, or does it show way too much strength here? Don't price in some of the KQ J10 at a ~10-12BB? Sometimes, you see some 3x/4xing going on, but not often.

[CorvairShaggy]

HAND #11 Was feeling and doing pretty good until here. Villain was running in god mode in the past 25 hands or so. He was always calling shoves with proper hands, and inducing with really good hands getting guys to shove off with mediocre hands . No donk play from him. So, is he still playing proper, or is he widening his range here just trying to bully?? There was about 30-something players left.Converted by a herd of feral cowsPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t600/t1200 ante t125 - 7 playersCO Hero: t35,251 Button Gedis777: t18,195 SB ficak91: t32,589 BB JC_fullases: t7,320 UTG elsureño222: t50,892 UTG+1 Ventilatorrr: t68,474 HJ snorka: t53,364 Preflop: (t2,675) Hero is CO with (7 players)elsureño222 folds, Ventilatorrr raises to t2736, snorka folds, Hero calls t2736, 3 foldsDid not want to just go crazy PF, so just called.QUESTION: Am I really deep enough to pull off a 3-bet, and do you really want to try to get it in PF with about ~30 BBs PF here??Flop: (t8,147) (2 players)Ventilatorrr bets t4200, Hero calls t4200 Brick for me, and pretty safe based on his play, unless he has a PP. Half pot standard C-bet. My thinking here was call, hope for a A or Q on the turn, if not, then raise a good looking high card.Turn: (t16,547) (2 players)Ventilatorrr bets t7200, Hero ....Well, here is my bluff card, but his bet is now below half pot. Is he firing a second barrel here, or does he have AK, KQ suited? Hmm. He had been playing pretty well, so this K could have very well hit him, or he could still have a PP, or he could have just air. Now, I am getting cold feet and my flop plan is not looking too good. I can't call here, because I will be lost in space no matter what happens on the river. I have to either fold here and lose 1/3 of my stack on this mis-adventure here, or raise, but to how much? The pot is just about what I have left, so basically I would have to shove with a bluff, and hope a competent player does not have a K, which is something that is very well in his range. Yuck.OK. So this is my thinking. Am I on the right track here, and what would anyone have done differently in this hand??

[HighwayStar]

Instead of me saying what I think, what do you think he raises pre, bets twice and folds on this board which beats you?I can tell you that this player is a reasonable regular. Nothing else sticks in my mind so he probably isn't too loose.Regarding preflop: you could definitely consider a 3 bet vs some and definitely a fold vs others...without much information I'd probably play preflop and flop the same.

[CorvairShaggy]

HighwayStar, on Sunday, January 23rd, 2011, 11:08 AM, said:

Instead of me saying what I think, what do you think he raises pre, bets twice and folds on this board which beats you?

Hmmmm......... a KING!!BUT.... don't these competent regs ever bluff in situations like this, or when you are playing like 12 tables Do they/you (Highway) just play ABC and don't have time to pay attention to other players. Basically, If you figure them for a reg, do you always put them on high cards? I mean, would he play 99/1010 the same way??

[nutzzcase]

I'd probably play most of my overpairs and bluffs like villain so shoving the turn seems really bad. (considering I'd almost never fold my overpairs to your shove on the turn and I'd fold everything you beat)

[nutzzcase]

HighwayStar, on Sunday, January 23rd, 2011, 10:08 AM, said:

Instead of me saying what I think, what do you think he raises pre, bets twice and folds on this board which beats you?

55!!

[CorvairShaggy]

nutzzcase, on Sunday, January 23rd, 2011, 6:30 PM, said:

55!!

Damn, you saw that?!?!beware the feral cow packs. they hunger.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t150/t300 ante t25 - 9 playersHJ zevenkamp: t10,381 CO SweeTxChild: t3,985 Button master06: t6,945 SB canarion77: t12,820 BB Moosenukl78: t3,925 UTG 3lmagic0: t16,205 UTG+1 Hero: t9,923 MP Io.Sti: t2,540 MP2 SjunkieXtra: t14,581 Preflop: (t675) Hero is UTG+1 with (9 players)3lmagic0 folds, Hero raises to t600, 3 folds, SweeTxChild raises to t3960 and is all-in, 3 folds, Hero calls t3360Flop: (t8,595) (2 players)Turn: (t8,595) (2 players)River: (t8,595) (2 players)SweeTxChild showed , and won (8595) with two pair, Queens and SevensHero showed , and lost with two pair, Sevens and FivesSweeTxChild won t8595Getting about 2.5:1 hoping for a flip. Didn't work out that way. You damn regs always have big pairs or AK, always at the wrong times

[nutzzcase]

CorvairShaggy, on Sunday, January 23rd, 2011, 5:37 PM, said:

Damn, you saw that?!?!

nop, didn't see it but i think it's a fold pf utg+1.

[HighwayStar]

nutzzcase, on Monday, January 24th, 2011, 12:30 AM, said:

55!!

Yea I was thinking 33-55 was about it and they're gonna be discounted to nothing relative compared to hands he stacks off with.He could bluff here..it's an okay spot to do so. I would say it was in the arsenal of a minority of regulars though.I don't think calling is out of the question against a looser player..but it's very awkward on the river given stacks and I'd probably never actually do it.Tbh in 12 180s you rarely get in spots where you get to the turn without being all in or virtually all in. Early on you're playing a tight range which is rarely bluffing anyway, later the stacks are just too shallow. The game is all about playing well and exploiting people preflop and on the flop. 3Rs play reasonably deeper so you get more spots like this...kinda the reason I don't mix them in at the moment since they take more concentration for the same $/hour.----I think you can probably fold the 55 vs sweettx, he plays heaps of tables and is really tight. You'll find a few people like this who show up with the nuts all the time.

[CorvairShaggy]

HighwayStar, on Sunday, January 23rd, 2011, 7:08 PM, said:

Yea I was thinking 33-55 was about it and they're gonna be discounted to nothing relative compared to hands he stacks off with.He could bluff here..it's an okay spot to do so. I would say it was in the arsenal of a minority of regulars though. I don't think calling is out of the question against a looser player..but it's very awkward on the river given stacks and I'd probably never actually do it. Tbh in 12 180s you rarely get in spots where you get to the turn without being all in or virtually all in. Early on you're playing a tight range which is rarely bluffing anyway, later the stacks are just too shallow. The game is all about playing well and exploiting people preflop and on the flop. 3Rs play reasonably deeper so you get more spots like this...kinda the reason I don't mix them in at the moment since they take more concentration for the same $/hour.----I think you can probably fold the 55 vs sweettx, he plays heaps of tables and is really tight. You'll find a few people like this who show up with the nuts all the time.

Yea, that is what I thought. I mean, I'm already kinda lost. You call of 4th and 5th bricks, then you just burned cash on 4th.I go back and forth with $12s and $3 rebuys. Been watching some videos and working on my early game some. In the $12's early on I can't get any traction, therefore I am too short too quick. I have a "good" feel for later game, just need to build up more chips earlier so I can quit going out on a regular basis at 50th-60th. That and losing money are the only two regular poker things I have in common right now. Ohh well. Back to work. Thanks for the inputs!!

[XXEddie]

CorvairShaggy, on Sunday, January 23rd, 2011, 6:37 PM, said:

Damn, you saw that?!?!beware the feral cow packs. they hunger.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t150/t300 ante t25 - 9 playersHJ zevenkamp: t10,381 CO SweeTxChild: t3,985 Button master06: t6,945 SB canarion77: t12,820 BB Moosenukl78: t3,925 UTG 3lmagic0: t16,205 UTG+1 Hero: t9,923 MP Io.Sti: t2,540 MP2 SjunkieXtra: t14,581 Preflop: (t675) Hero is UTG+1 with (9 players)3lmagic0 folds, Hero raises to t600, 3 folds, SweeTxChild raises to t3960 and is all-in, 3 folds, Hero calls t3360Flop: (t8,595) (2 players)Turn: (t8,595) (2 players)River: (t8,595) (2 players)SweeTxChild showed , and won (8595) with two pair, Queens and SevensHero showed , and lost with two pair, Sevens and FivesSweeTxChild won t8595Getting about 2.5:1 hoping for a flip. Didn't work out that way. You damn regs always have big pairs or AK, always at the wrong times

You're math is way off. It's 3360 to win 5235. About 1.55 to 1.

[CorvairShaggy]

HAND #12a OK. A few interesting spots in this one. Let's start with the B vs BThere was about 50-something left, and villain was chip leader, and was 19/19 over 27 . What to do?? I'm thinking I only have 10BBs effective, and TBH I really was not paying attention (3-tabling, first problem ) to see how he got that stack. I am thinking call, b/c he is probably shoving pretty wide here especially if he thinks I am trying to steal. I had been playing pretty tight b/c I had been card dead for a while. Is my thinking ok here and is this a standard play to make the call here?Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t400/t800 ante t75 - 9 playersUTG+1 pkroomsux: t5,635 MP herasuko: t11,400 MP2 666killjoy: t7,875 HJ Þ¿ÿ¿Þ: t8,719 CO gfernandez88: t30,152 Button te rauparaha: t12,903 SB Hero: t10,362 BB trombanator9: t32,428 UTG sprstoner: t6,200 Preflop: (t1,875) Hero is SB with (9 players)7 folds, Hero raises to t1600, trombanator9 raises to t32353 and is all-in, Hero ...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HAND #12b Villain is 8/8 over 12. I've got ~20bbs. Is 88 in MP tad too light to iso-shove here? I think about high-40 somethings left. I'm thinking Jacks or better to shove with. Thoughts??Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t500/t1000 ante t100 - 9 playersBB MADLUKKER: t2,256 UTG herasuko: t11,250 UTG+1 666killjoy: t5,850 MP comp(insane): t17,360 MP2 gfernandez88: t28,527 HJ te rauparaha: t18,253 CO Hero: t21,399 Button trombanator9: t59,390 SB sprstoner: t10,700 Preflop: (t2,400) Hero is CO with (9 players)herasuko raises to t11150 and is all-in, 4 folds, Hero ...-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HAND #12c Line Check. Villain is a complete retard with vp56/pr22/afq67 over 18 Thoughts??A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t800/t1600 ante t150 - 7 playersHJ DRYNZ: t40,740 CO chi fume: t56,385 Button gfernandez88: t21,457 SB te rauparaha: t11,678 BB Hero: t15,139 UTG trombanator9: t72,060 UTG+1 Ropar63: t31,485 Preflop: (t3,450) Hero is BB with (7 players)3 folds, chi fume calls t1600, 2 folds, Hero checksFlop: (t5,050) (2 players)Hero checks, chi fume bets t1600, Hero raises to t4800, chi fume calls t3200Turn: (t14,650) (2 players)Hero checks, chi fume checksRiver: (t14,650) (2 players)Hero bets t8589 and is all-in, chi fume ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HAND #12 d ehhhhhhh. Villain was 13/10/83 over 30. How do you figure if someone is stealing or has the goods in this spot? He had been pretty quiet until now, so I guess his 25% of stack raise means he really wants to get it in. AQ-off too light here? I did not feel good about it at the time, and maybe results oriented thinking, feel worse about it now. AK QQ+ I guess would be an unavoidable shove against this villain's range, but if I call and total brick the flop, then I'm just ****ed. IDK. Thoughts??Dont have a cow, heres your converted handPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t800/t1600 ante t150 - 7 playersUTG+1 DRYNZ: t40,590 HJ chi fume: t49,835 CO gfernandez88: t21,307 Button te rauparaha: t10,728 SB Hero: t23,239 BB trombanator9: t71,910 UTG Ropar63: t31,335 Preflop: (t3,450) Hero is SB with (7 players)3 folds, gfernandez88 raises to t4800,te rauparaha folds, Hero raises to t23089 and is all-in, trombanator9 folds, gfernandez88 calls t16357 and is all-inFlop: (t44,964) (2 players)Turn: (t44,964) (2 players)River: (t44,964) (2 players)

[HighwayStar]

a) SHOVE initially. If you do raise never fold. Also don't min raise bvb in general...make it a little bigger else you're gonna start playing heaps of pots out of positionb) 88 is close here vs a tight player. I'd probably never fold though unless I had a big sample on someone. 12 hands isn't a big sample. c) Shove pre. Check shove flop. I have no idea after that. I'm not seeing a turn without the money being in.d) edit - fine. Don't think about folding this unless you have a massive sample/history with someone.

[TrueAce13]

i'm going all in preflop on all of those hands

[CorvairShaggy]

TrueAce13, on Friday, February 4th, 2011, 2:26 PM, said:

i'm going all in preflop on all of those hands

Right now, you could get it in with Uno cards and still come out a winner! Here was the results: HAND #12 a Hero calls t8687 and is all-inFlop: (t21,249) (2 players)Turn: (t21,249) (2 players)River: (t21,249) (2 players)Hero showed , and won (21249) with a pair of Kingstrombanator9 showed , and lost with high card KingHero won t21249---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HAND #12b Hero folds, 2 folds, MADLUKKER calls t1156 and is all-inFlop: (t5,712) (2 players)Turn: (t5,712) (2 players)River: (t5,712) (2 players)MADLUKKER showed , and lost with two pair, Aces and Ninesherasuko showed , and won (5712) with two pair, Aces and Ninesherasuko won t5712--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HAND #12c Villain Folded----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So on HAND #12b, 88s shoulda been shoved there. I just did not have a good feeling here, and that is why I folded, but I did tank for bit. Just realized I did not pay attention to the players left to act and their stack sizes.... hmm... Just went back and looked at that, and other than the guy directly to my left that I could not figure out if he was a luckbox or a really good player, I had the remaining covered 2:1, so basically I guess this was a classic flip situation, and hope like hell no one woke up with a bigger PP. Thanks again for the inputs.

[MaxStPolish]

CorvairShaggy, on Sunday, January 23rd, 2011, 6:37 PM, said:

Damn, you saw that?!?!beware the feral cow packs. they hunger.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t150/t300 ante t25 - 9 playersHJ zevenkamp: t10,381 CO SweeTxChild: t3,985 Button master06: t6,945 SB canarion77: t12,820 BB Moosenukl78: t3,925 UTG 3lmagic0: t16,205 UTG+1 Hero: t9,923 MP Io.Sti: t2,540 MP2 SjunkieXtra: t14,581 Preflop: (t675) Hero is UTG+1 with (9 players)3lmagic0 folds, Hero raises to t600, 3 folds, SweeTxChild raises to t3960 and is all-in, 3 folds, Hero calls t3360Flop: (t8,595) (2 players)Turn: (t8,595) (2 players)River: (t8,595) (2 players)SweeTxChild showed , and won (8595) with two pair, Queens and SevensHero showed , and lost with two pair, Sevens and FivesSweeTxChild won t8595Getting about 2.5:1 hoping for a flip. Didn't work out that way. You damn regs always have big pairs or AK, always at the wrong times

I just wandered into here. Question on this one. Can I ask both CS as well as the panel of esteemed representatives what the point of min raising UTG+1 with 55 is. Is it to try and prevent a latter player from attempting a squeeze raise, thereby ruining your equity to set mine? I dunno, I guess I just don't get it. My instinct is to fold 55 here unless I'm limping to set mine. I feel like it takes 77-88+ for me to open here. I'm a nit often though too. I just don't see the value in the min-raise open. I at least understand it if the intent is to preserve the odds to set mine.....I still don't really "like" it tho.Thx in advance for thoughts.

[HighwayStar]

You can almost always make money raising 55 here at low stakes. Not much money, but some. There are some stack size distributions which won't make it good but in general the players are gonna be bad enough in various ways to make 55 marginally profitable.I really don't like limping here. You can make money limping these hands very early on in mtt sngs but past 25/50 it's pretty bad. Personally I never do it. I think 22-44 should often be folded but not always.Regarding the min raise...I think it's probably better when learning to beat low stakes to make it 2.25-2.5x when opening. Min raising is definitely a profitable strategy but I see it as something you can incooporate into your game once you have a ton of experience. You'll get a lot more awkward situations when min raising

[HighwayStar]

CorvairShaggy, on Saturday, February 5th, 2011, 4:39 AM, said:

Right now, you could get it in with Uno cards and still come out a winner!

You don't know how true this is. In vegas last year TA13 won something like 4 straight games of $10 6 max UNO.

[CorvairShaggy]

MaxStPolish, on Saturday, February 5th, 2011, 9:32 AM, said:

I just wandered into here. Question on this one. Can I ask both CS as well as the panel of esteemed representatives what the point of min raising UTG+1 with 55 is. Is it to try and prevent a latter player from attempting a squeeze raise, thereby ruining your equity to set mine? I dunno, I guess I just don't get it. My instinct is to fold 55 here unless I'm limping to set mine. I feel like it takes 77-88+ for me to open here. I'm a nit often though too. I just don't see the value in the min-raise open. I at least understand it if the intent is to preserve the odds to set mine.....I still don't really "like" it tho.Thx in advance for thoughts.

This was just a retarded gamble. Generally in these, when the antes kick in, people play a lot tighter. The min raise here is really to just take the pot away, but really needs to be a few levels deeper to really accomplish that. If you get lucky enough for someone to call you, then you are set-mining, or if it is a low dry board, you can c-bet the flop and take it down there. I think you are correct with calling a shove needs to be at least 77-88. The reg villain was at about 14bbs, so therefore I made the choice to flip with him, but unfortunatly he had a bigger PP. Generally from what I have seen, when it gets to the later stages, guys are shoving 10-15bbs with any Ax (maybe not regs). That is my flawed thinking. I am always open to discussion, but this probably really was a retarded play here.

[CorvairShaggy]

HighwayStar, on Saturday, February 5th, 2011, 11:39 AM, said:

You can almost always make money raising 55 here at low stakes. Not much money, but some. There are some stack size distributions which won't make it good but in general the players are gonna be bad enough in various ways to make 55 marginally profitable.I really don't like limping here. You can make money limping these hands very early on in mtt sngs but past 25/50 it's pretty bad. Personally I never do it. I think 22-44 should often be folded but not always.Regarding the min raise...I think it's probably better when learning to beat low stakes to make it 2.25-2.5x when opening. Min raising is definitely a profitable strategy but I see it as something you can incooporate into your game once you have a ton of experience. You'll get a lot more awkward situations when min raising

Thanks for pointing this out to me in the past few hands. From what I have read, they say it is good to min-raise when antes kick in to try to steal the pots. If I understand what you are saying, is that you want to open-raise hands that you are only comfortable getting it in PF with. No min-raise, fold to shove unless you are min-raising for inducing purposes. I guess that there are maybe some spots in late position in later levels where min-raising would be ok with ATC for purposes of light stealing, or do you not recommend it at all??Going to fire up a few of these this afternoon and try the 2.5x in spots where I would have min-raised before and see how it goes.