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Deep Tournament Runs


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#1 riverrat

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 02:10 PM

Don't know if this is the proper forum, but I have some general questions regarding the really big MTTs online (1k players plus). I do ok in these tournaments and cash on a somewhat regular basis but I have only had a couple of deep runs (6th in a $1 buy in 7100 player tournament and 34th in a $5 3k player tourney). Most of the time I see myself being below the average stack size (often short stacked) around the bubble. I will squeak my way into the money and maybe even move up a 100 spots or so into the $ but rarely will I make a nice cash. I see most of the solid players playing small ball and raising just barely over the minimum over and over again. I tried this in a 180 man tourney today and was surprised to see how effective it was for the most part (still didnt cash but had a healthy stack for a while until I ran into a couple of flip situatations and lost). Assuming you don't get hit with the deck, is this small ball approach the only way to accumulate chips? My overall approach is more of a tight aggressive style later in tournaments and I know I need to tweak my game to get to the next level. Should I incorporate more bluffing into my game. I will do the standard continuation bets and bluff on occasion, but most of the time I only like to bluff when I am on some type of draw that at least gives me the potential to win the hand if I get called.

#2 tbrick412

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 03:57 PM

ask tehtoe or trueace13
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#3 riverrat

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:10 PM

View Posttbrick412, on Thursday, October 21st, 2010, 7:57 PM, said:

ask tehtoe or trueace13
Funny. Next time I will include you when I recommend guys to turn to for advice. I see them posting a lot so I pulled their stats and I would certainly welcome their opinions as well as yours assuming you crush the online multis too.

#4 TrueAce13

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 04:21 PM

just raise/fold a lot
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#5 rrumsey

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 06:11 PM

dont ever worry about average stack size imo. worry about the the effective stack and your stack size. nothing matters except in big icm spots very late.
Escalante in the small stakes grinder podcast in respect to my FPS " Bet your damn hands!!!" hahaha

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#6 rrumsey

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 06:14 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on Thursday, October 21st, 2010, 4:21 PM, said:

just raise/fold a lot
in late spots with small stacks ( i play turbos a lot) just min raise a sh*t ton opening very wide.
Escalante in the small stakes grinder podcast in respect to my FPS " Bet your damn hands!!!" hahaha

Download Spartan's podcast, Small Stakes Grinder! the link for iTunes is: (http://itunes.apple....der/id354114893)
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#7 MaxStPolish

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:05 PM

Well....I've FT more MTT's over the last year than I previously had in my 6 prior years of play. In theory it could be nothing more than years of past due variance paying out, so take this for whatever you want.......The single biggest change I feel I've made over the past year is when I get the "f it, let's gamble" devil on my one shoulder. You know those situations...where a tight aggressive player that's been very passive for the past hour springs a monster re-raise on you preflop...one that would pretty much commits your 35BB preflop stack in the hand and you have AQ or 99, etc. You know this guy's range is essentially TT+/AK, yet you make the crying call rather than just holding a sold 22BBs behind and fight another day. I've treated it like a 'self-programming code' change. Now when my brain computes "f it, let's gamble", I have that command run the fold function. Another material change is simply committing to the length of MTTs. Even a smaller MTT is going to run you 5-6 hours at least, if you end up on the top of the ladder. Playing in these when you don't have the time....your attention is going to taken away in the later going and that is just wasting money. More often than not it leads to the above scenario....if not a worse one. I have found that in my earlier days, I'd be playing these tourneys to 'make the money'. In a lot of tournies that may not even be the halfway point. Not to mention, if you don't finish in the top 3-5% of the field, the money you win isn't even enough to cover minimum wage for the effort you put in (if you are single tabling, or looking at this tourney as independent work). So by playing to 'make the money', you are playing not to lose. That's okay in short term decision making like the above example....but as a long term plan, you better enjoy playing just for the 'fun of the game' a lot, because it's not going to turn you a profit.Just a couple thoughts. And with respect to the OP, I think each tourney is going to present it's own dynamics. You ARE going to have those tourneys where you are on fumes at the bubble and really have no sensible option but to try and make it ITM. This makes me think of another change over the last year...I've finally exhibited SOME level of bankroll mgmt. Once upon a time, when my game was far worse, 20-30 buck tournies were my standard. Ocassionally something smaller or bigger, but that was my main level. The biggest problem here is that when you get to bubble time, you are missing out on MAJOR chances to improve your position when you have a decent chip stack because getting ITM represents a 'reasonable score' in and of itself. If you are doing this, you will rarely succeed. Now that I've brought my MTT buy in levels to a personally reasonable level, considering 20-30 buck MTTs more as 'taking shots' than the standard, my game has benefitted greatly, both by making myself a bigger shark in a fishier pond (lower level players) as well as being able to just play my game vs. putting too much concern on simply getting ITM.Hope this helps someone maybe. It was sort of reaffirming and therapeutic to think about and write.

#8 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:53 PM

^^^^^^^^^ :club: ^^^^^^^^^Especially the second paragraph. I work during the day, and do side jobs some nights and weekends, plus maried (Luckily NO kids :ts ) so time is a big thing for me. I have basically NO experience in MTTs, but in 180 SNGs that are 3-4 hours long, I have developed patience and learned how to mentally decide when I get home if I am awake/alert enough to commit 3-4 hours, or just do smaller SNGs. I am currently trying to work out the "gamble devil on the shoulder". Tough for me because my background is gambling, not thinking/strategy/bookworming. (Not that this is a bad thing. Trying to keep my nose in a book now :4h )
- - - - "It annoys me when players who play the tour for three years and don't do anything chalk it up to "variance." Yeah, has nothing to do with the fact that you suck... you are just unlucky." - - - - - Daniel Negreanu 1-21-2011 Blog

#9 riverrat

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 04:01 AM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on Monday, October 25th, 2010, 4:53 PM, said:

^^^^^^^^^ :club: ^^^^^^^^^Especially the second paragraph. I work during the day, and do side jobs some nights and weekends, plus maried (Luckily NO kids :ts ) so time is a big thing for me. I have basically NO experience in MTTs, but in 180 SNGs that are 3-4 hours long, I have developed patience and learned how to mentally decide when I get home if I am awake/alert enough to commit 3-4 hours, or just do smaller SNGs. I am currently trying to work out the "gamble devil on the shoulder". Tough for me because my background is gambling, not thinking/strategy/bookworming. (Not that this is a bad thing. Trying to keep my nose in a book now :4h )
Yeah, the big tournaments are definitely a big time commitment. I used to play 90 person turbos all the time and did very well for a while. I have shifted my focus to the bigger ones mainly as practice for some of the WSOP events and the nice cashes you can make for a small investment. I know I have the patience for it as I learned how to play by hosting home games at my place (its no fun to bust out and wait four hours for a tournament to finish when you don't have anywhere to go). I have noticed that the deeper you run in these the better the play is (even in the $3 and $5 tourneys). The first couple of hours weed out a majority of the donks. After that you see a lot of guys that are multi tabling low stakes tourneys all day for a living. I do very well in live and I am not sure if the play is just that much better online or if I have some major flaws in my game that hurts my online play. I know I don't use any of the tracking software and maybe that is part of it. I am pretty sure the other part is me playing like a nit at times too.

#10 Tehtoe

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 10:21 AM

Tournaments are the devil, don't play them.

#11 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 10:50 AM

View PostTehtoe, on Tuesday, October 26th, 2010, 1:21 PM, said:

Tournaments are the devil, don't play them.
Is that what ma-ma-ma mama said? They are da debil???
- - - - "It annoys me when players who play the tour for three years and don't do anything chalk it up to "variance." Yeah, has nothing to do with the fact that you suck... you are just unlucky." - - - - - Daniel Negreanu 1-21-2011 Blog

#12 rrumsey

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 08:08 AM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on Monday, October 25th, 2010, 12:53 PM, said:

^^^^^^^^^ :club: ^^^^^^^^^Especially the second paragraph. I work during the day, and do side jobs some nights and weekends, plus maried (Luckily NO kids :ts ) so time is a big thing for me. I have basically NO experience in MTTs, but in 180 SNGs that are 3-4 hours long, I have developed patience and learned how to mentally decide when I get home if I am awake/alert enough to commit 3-4 hours, or just do smaller SNGs. I am currently trying to work out the "gamble devil on the shoulder". Tough for me because my background is gambling, not thinking/strategy/bookworming. (Not that this is a bad thing. Trying to keep my nose in a book now :4h )
it can be hard to find the time. as a student who has a social life also, it sucks sometimes when friends wanna go out and im stuck in front my laptop playing 6 rush tournies. i found playing at night is the easiest way to play bc you have the day to get your sh*t done then play until your too tired. asleep @ 2 am. up at 8ish. sucks but it gets me time.
Escalante in the small stakes grinder podcast in respect to my FPS " Bet your damn hands!!!" hahaha

Download Spartan's podcast, Small Stakes Grinder! the link for iTunes is: (http://itunes.apple....der/id354114893)
Check out updates to the podcast in the "Members Blog" section of the forum (of pokerroad)...or else. Check it out guys it is a great podcast. Next Episode (Topic: Interview with Barry Greenstein Part 2): 04/19/10

#13 KingJames

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 07:46 PM

View PostTehtoe, on Tuesday, October 26th, 2010, 12:21 PM, said:

Tournaments are the devil, don't play them.
I whole heartedly believe this statement to be truth
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