18 replies to this topic

[TraptSteve]

relevant stack sizes-Villian - ~ 700hero coversPreflop-Mp raises to 20, villain calls, LP calls,Hero SB (kckd) Raises to 120, Mp calls for less, Villain calls, LP calls for lessFlop -(~470)Ad Qd 2dHero?My 3bet range from the sb is pretty wide. Villian is on the nittier side, he's a bit looser preflop but will usually play his monsters post flop in a straight forward manner. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.Thanks

[mtdesmoines]

TraptSteve, on Sunday, September 12th, 2010, 11:22 PM, said:

relevant stack sizes-Villian - ~ 700hero coversPreflop-Mp raises to 20, villain calls, LP calls,Hero SB (kckd) Raises to 120, Mp calls for less, Villain calls, LP calls for lessFlop -(~470)Ad Qd 2dHero?My 3bet range from the sb is pretty wide. Villian is on the nittier side, he's a bit looser preflop but will usually play his monsters post flop in a straight forward manner. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.Thanks

I need to understand. There are two players in the hand who had <120 and called PF? OK, so we can only get action from one remaining hand and he started with $700 and we cover? Sticky. He's prob not folding an A and not giving action with anything we beat obv. Checking puts us at a disadvantage and we are put in a bad spot unless he bets <200 or so, and we can't count on many villains to do something so bad. Betting folds worse hands and we're prob losing the pot to A3 or some junk anyway for the main.

[Stupidhead]

I'd start by checking and go from there.

[rbakken2504]

mtdesmoines, on Monday, September 13th, 2010, 9:18 AM, said:

I need to understand. There are two players in the hand who had <120 and called PF? OK, so we can only get action from one remaining hand and he started with $700 and we cover? Sticky. He's prob not folding an A and not giving action with anything we beat obv. Checking puts us at a disadvantage and we are put in a bad spot unless he bets <200 or so, and we can't count on many villains to do something so bad. Betting folds worse hands and we're prob losing the pot to A3 or some junk anyway for the main.

Yeah, pretty simple check here....betting would just be protecting the two all-ins hands, which I assume somebody has an Ace in their hand. For that reason, especially since you said villain is on nittier side, when you check villain will probably only bet with a good ace.

[Ninja Ace]

With a likely 11 outer and getting nearly 2:1 on a called ship, isn't it better to just ship now? Sure we "protect" the all ins... and with the Q on the board he may even hero fold AK or AJ or something once in a blue moon since we can't be bluffing... I'm just seeing a spot where we can never fold so why let worse hands draw at us?

[Stupidhead]

Ninja Ace, on Monday, September 13th, 2010, 1:22 AM, said:

With a likely 11 outer and getting nearly 2:1 on a called ship, isn't it better to just ship now? Sure we "protect" the all ins... and with the Q on the board he may even hero fold AK or AJ or something once in a blue moon since we can't be bluffing... I'm just seeing a spot where we can never fold so why let worse hands draw at us?

Shipping to protect our hand seems rly bad. If villain is even capable of folding Ax here c/shoving is so much better.

[rbakken2504]

Ninja Ace, on Monday, September 13th, 2010, 12:22 PM, said:

With a likely 11 outer and getting nearly 2:1 on a called ship, isn't it better to just ship now? Sure we "protect" the all ins... and with the Q on the board he may even hero fold AK or AJ or something once in a blue moon since we can't be bluffing... I'm just seeing a spot where we can never fold so why let worse hands draw at us?

Oh, my bad, i didnt see it was an all diamond board.....i still check here tho.....too likely the all ins have an ace in their hand, but i wouldnt be c/f as i originally stated, i'd c/c or c/r....i don't mind either of those options

[TraptSteve]

mtdesmoines, on Sunday, September 12th, 2010, 10:18 PM, said:

I need to understand. There are two players in the hand who had <120 and called PF? OK, so we can only get action from one remaining hand and he started with $700 and we cover? Sticky. He's prob not folding an A and not giving action with anything we beat obv. Checking puts us at a disadvantage and we are put in a bad spot unless he bets <200 or so, and we can't count on many villains to do something so bad. Betting folds worse hands and we're prob losing the pot to A3 or some junk anyway for the main.

Yep, that's right. There are two players all-in with the villian being the only 1 left to give action.What do you guys think his range is here? If he was set- mining there's really 1 hand that got. What about big aces? I this is a pretty narrow range, since we'll assume he'd 3-Bet AK pf. Also what action best balances air w/ the top of our range? In this situation vs this villian i think betting ~ 1/2 pot accomplishes the same thing as a shove. And despite having 11 outs, i'd hate having to call a PSB or shove.

[rbakken2504]

TraptSteve, on Tuesday, September 14th, 2010, 12:32 AM, said:

Yep, that's right. There are two players all-in with the villian being the only 1 left to give action.What do you guys think his range is here? If he was set- mining there's really 1 hand that got. What about big aces? I this is a pretty narrow range, since we'll assume he'd 3-Bet AK pf. Also what action best balances air w/ the top of our range? In this situation vs this villian i think betting ~ 1/2 pot accomplishes the same thing as a shove. And despite having 11 outs, i'd hate having to call a PSB or shove.

You should never be betting air here ( and villain should know this ) because of the dry side pot......as far as his range goes, in a vacuum TT+, AQ+.....might be a little loose

[mtdesmoines]

I don't know guys, I think check-shove>check-call>>>shove. I think the only action he can give us is w an A or a high diamond/pair/something draw. And we're behind on the main SO often that I think we need to disregard that pot unless we improve. 11 outs isn't many into a dry side pot and the next highest d is the jack, and how likely are we to catch someone drawing w the Jd with a hand we are currently beating? Like I said, I think best best scenario is to check and see villain price our d draw in. I'd like to hear better ideas.

[Stupidhead]

Balancing is a non-issue. It's 2-5 live. People don't pay attention to balancing. Betting shouldn't even be a consideration here. If we didn't have the Kd then it may be a different story, but with the nfd we can play pretty straight forward in this spot. We check. If villain bets, we decide if we want to c/c or c/shove based on the bet sizing. If he checks, we evaluate the turn and decide if we can get some thin value or if we just want to check down.

[TraptSteve]

Stupidhead, on Monday, September 13th, 2010, 8:12 PM, said:

Balancing is a non-issue. It's 2-5 live. People don't pay attention to balancing. Betting shouldn't even be a consideration here. If we didn't have the Kd then it may be a different story, but with the nfd we can play pretty straight forward in this spot. We check. If villain bets, we decide if we want to c/c or c/shove based on the bet sizing. If he checks, we evaluate the turn and decide if we can get some thin value or if we just want to check down.

That is true, most of the players don't bother balancing their hands... even the more observant ones.I bet 235, he shoved.Villain had AQ for top two and my hand never improved... in part that the initial raiser preflop had the other two kings. I bet because I thought his range was heavily leaning towards small/med pairs for set value. AK he 3-bets preflop. I just wasn't sure if he would call with AQ or worse preflop. It seemed unlikely so I decided to "protect" the equity I had with my Kings/NFD which figured to be good against his range. If he ships, I'm getting more than the right price to call.If anyone wants to pokerstove this, it would probably help. C/C & check/raising seem reasonable.I'm leaving work now, later

[mtdesmoines]

TraptSteve, on Tuesday, September 14th, 2010, 12:01 PM, said:

That is true, most of the players don't bother balancing their hands... even the more observant ones.I bet 235, he shoved.Villain had AQ for top two and my hand never improved... in part that the initial raiser preflop had the other two kings. I bet because I thought his range was heavily leaning towards small/med pairs for set value. AK he 3-bets preflop. I just wasn't sure if he would call with AQ or worse preflop. It seemed unlikely so I decided to "protect" the equity I had with my Kings/NFD which figured to be good against his range. If he ships, I'm getting more than the right price to call.If anyone wants to pokerstove this, it would probably help. C/C & check/raising seem reasonable.I'm leaving work now, later

The problem is that we're prob already behind for the main and there's no action left, so whatever would happen vs. the main is what will happen. There are no implied odds etc. But I think we still need to calculate our 23% or whatever for the ENTIRE pot if the villain gives us action.

[rrumsey]

i think i would just ship the flop, we have a ton of outs to the nuts. get it in. bc i hate having to check call to be honest.

[offset]

Obvious check. One of the villains has obviously hit the ace and the non-all in player will not bet a weaker hand than a paired Ace. Fold if he bets, unless it's really small, and I mean REALLY small.Um, ya. Also I didn't really understand if "calls for less" meant they were all in or not but basically same advice if they still have chips.

[offset]

oh wow, didn't see the flush draw. that changes things. Still check, since the pot is a dry side pot (the other players are all in, right?) but c/r all in if he bets. He probably will call but you have 11 outs and it is still correct to get all your chips in the middle even if he calls 100% of the time. Push immediately if the other players aren't all in.

[blakheart]

Seems pretty straight forward to me-There is potentially a pot of $470 plus villains remaining $580 and our $580 for a total potential pot of $1630. We need to risk $580 to win $1630. or roughly 1/3 of the time. We will hit one of our 11 outs abut 44% of the time. I say get it all in-Check shove, open shove- bet, call- it doesn’t matter- get it in

[Danege]

TraptSteve, on Wednesday, September 15th, 2010, 3:01 AM, said:

That is true, most of the players don't bother balancing their hands... even the more observant ones.I bet 235, he shoved.Villain had AQ for top two and my hand never improved... in part that the initial raiser preflop had the other two kings. I bet because I thought his range was heavily leaning towards small/med pairs for set value. AK he 3-bets preflop. I just wasn't sure if he would call with AQ or worse preflop. It seemed unlikely so I decided to "protect" the equity I had with my Kings/NFD which figured to be good against his range. If he ships, I'm getting more than the right price to call.If anyone wants to pokerstove this, it would probably help. C/C & check/raising seem reasonable.I'm leaving work now, later

You 3bet preflop.

[TraptSteve]

Danege, on Wednesday, September 15th, 2010, 3:24 AM, said:

You 3bet preflop.

He had the option to 3-bet the initial raiser, so I rule out him having AK... assuming that he would usually 3-bet in that spot. Hope this clarifies my statement.