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#1 Rawrr

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 04:20 AM

Posted ImageFeral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 6 playersButton: $11.98 SB: $11.00 BB: $14.38 (Hero)UTG: $10.84 UTG+1: $10.00 CO: $16.79 Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with :club: :3h (6 players)2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20Flop: ($0.65) :5c :jh :ts (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40Turn: ($1.45) :qh (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80River: ($3.05) :4h (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $5.50, Hero calls $5.50(Rake: $0.69)I was running horribly in SNG's, so I thought I would go back to cash games where I built my bankroll. Villain has been playing pretty tight, and I never saw him bluff two streets. I told myself I would call a bet on the river even though I didn't like the 8 or 4, but I wasn't expecting an overbet, something that I had yet to see him do. I called because I felt that since I called two streets, he would either be getting called by me on a normal sized bet with a decent hand, or be folding with a draw, and that him betting so much was him trying to push me off something. That being said, in the back of my mind was the fact that this is 10NL and a lot of players don't think their actions through that much.Is it ever wrong to call here? Or should I have folded? I don't think pushing would have helped me since I am only getting called by better hands.Also, I do realize I have a decent hand and we are 6 handed, I just didn't like the way it played out because of the way I had seen him play.

#2 fighter

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 04:50 AM

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 10:20 PM, said:

Posted ImageFeral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 6 playersButton: $11.98 SB: $11.00 BB: $14.38 (Hero)UTG: $10.84 UTG+1: $10.00 CO: $16.79 Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with :club: :3h (6 players)2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20Flop: ($0.65) :5c :jh :ts (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40Turn: ($1.45) :qh (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80River: ($3.05) :4h (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $5.50, Hero calls $5.50(Rake: $0.69)I was running horribly in SNG's, so I thought I would go back to cash games where I built my bankroll. Villain has been playing pretty tight, and I never saw him bluff two streets. I told myself I would call a bet on the river even though I didn't like the 8 or 4, but I wasn't expecting an overbet, something that I had yet to see him do. I called because I felt that since I called two streets, he would either be getting called by me on a normal sized bet with a decent hand, or be folding with a draw, and that him betting so much was him trying to push me off something. That being said, in the back of my mind was the fact that this is 10NL and a lot of players don't think their actions through that much.Is it ever wrong to call here? Or should I have folded? I don't think pushing would have helped me since I am only getting called by better hands.Also, I do realize I have a decent hand and we are 6 handed, I just didn't like the way it played out because of the way I had seen him play.
I would fold turn. 8 is a terrible card for him to keep bluffing on. I would fold river too. I give unknown people credit for having a hand the first time they fire three barrels. I also give credit to unknowns the first time they overbet bluff. This random just did both. While you have close to the top of your range in this spot, I doubt he knowns that or is thinking that. All he is really thinking about is Vegas and the ****ing Mirage.10nl should be about trying to value bet really thin since people don't play back often enough and call too much. You just became an example of that by calling 3 streets + an over bet with a dominated ace. Solid poker man, no need to hero call without a read.

#3 Rawrr

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:00 AM

View Postfighter, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 5:50 AM, said:

I would fold turn. 8 is a terrible card for him to keep bluffing on. I would fold river too. I give unknown people credit for having a hand the first time they fire three barrels. I also give credit to unknowns the first time they overbet bluff. This random just did both. While you have close to the top of your range in this spot, I doubt he knowns that or is thinking that. All he is really thinking about is Vegas and the ****ing Mirage.10nl should be about trying to value bet really thin since people don't play back often enough and call too much. You just became an example of that by calling 3 streets + an over bet with a dominated ace. Solid poker man, no need to hero call without a read.
The only reason I stayed with him was because I thought it was pretty likely he had an ace and would bet, and thought so until the river. The reason I didn't play back on the flop was because I figured if he had a worse hand he would be going away without me getting all the value I can on the flop. Then when the turn came, I just wanted to show down thinking it's still possible he has a worse ace, but I don't want to get raised and have to fold. The river was where I was the most concerned. Playing at micro stakes, it seems when people do that, they either have Aces or a rivered flush or something, or it's a complete bluff. Plus, the people with very strong hands there check until the river trying to make us beat, then shove the river. Although I didn't think he was that bad, I thought maybe it was reasonable he had an ace, but maybe not likely enough :PThanks for the input.

#4 fighter

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:10 AM

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 11:00 PM, said:

The only reason I stayed with him was because I thought it was pretty likely he had an ace and would bet, and thought so until the river. The reason I didn't play back on the flop was because I figured if he had a worse hand he would be going away without me getting all the value I can on the flop. Then when the turn came, I just wanted to show down thinking it's still possible he has a worse ace, but I don't want to get raised and have to fold. The river was where I was the most concerned. Playing at micro stakes, it seems when people do that, they either have Aces or a rivered flush or something, or it's a complete bluff. Plus, the people with very strong hands there check until the river trying to make us beat, then shove the river. Although I didn't think he was that bad, I thought maybe it was reasonable he had an ace, but maybe not likely enough :PThanks for the input.
I don't think you should raise this hand at any point for the same reasons you shouldn't be calling, you are very frequently behind.I doubt AT-A2 bet turn unless they are 2 pair or pair+ spades. They would most likely check unless they thought you would call with a flush draw on the turn. They check back turn because you should be folding your Ax hands a large % of the time to that bet. Also lets them pick off your bluffs on river from missed flush and straight draws. Your range for his river bet is right. Problem is you only beat the bluff part so he has to be doing it VERY often for this to be a profitable call because he is giving you awful pot odds.

#5 Rawrr

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:33 AM

View Postfighter, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 6:10 AM, said:

I don't think you should raise this hand at any point for the same reasons you shouldn't be calling, you are very frequently behind.I doubt AT-A2 bet turn unless they are 2 pair or pair+ spades. They would most likely check unless they thought you would call with a flush draw on the turn. They check back turn because you should be folding your Ax hands a large % of the time to that bet. Also lets them pick off your bluffs on river from missed flush and straight draws. Your range for his river bet is right. Problem is you only beat the bluff part so he has to be doing it VERY often for this to be a profitable call because he is giving you awful pot odds.
I have to disagree with you on one part to mentioned. I routinely see people play A6 and even A5 like the nuts when they hit their ace. Its rarer for A2-A4, but A5+ is certainly in that group. I always scratch my head when it happens, but now I have scabs because it happens so often at these levels.

#6 fighter

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:52 AM

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 11:33 PM, said:

I have to disagree with you on one part to mentioned. I routinely see people play A6 and even A5 like the nuts when they hit their ace. Its rarer for A2-A4, but A5+ is certainly in that group. I always scratch my head when it happens, but now I have scabs because it happens so often at these levels.
I have limited experience with 10nl so I'll have to let someone else comment on level dynamics. I believe that in this situation they are overplaying their aces unless they think that you are going to get attached with 4x, 5x or spades. It is for this reason that I advise against a call down here without a read. If you see him barreling off at a really high frequency then call down. If you see him going for thin value against other regs (not fish, they should have a modified range vs fish) call. If you haven't, I would let this go. You are trying to expolit someone for value betting too thin when you haven't seen them do that before.

#7 rrumsey

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:54 AM

calling flop is fine, but we are only beating super thin vbets past that point. did you consider 3 betting?
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#8 Rawrr

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 06:11 AM

View Postrrumsey, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 6:54 AM, said:

calling flop is fine, but we are only beating super thin vbets past that point. did you consider 3 betting?
I did, but I figured I would only get called by stronger hand, and if he had a weaker hand, he would continue to bet into me. One thing I should note is that I saw him playing 2 draws, and he didn't bet either one, just checked trying to get free cards, so that was pretty important in me deciding that it was unlikely for him to have turned the straight in that spot.One thing I totally forgot to mention was that I had 3bet him like 3 or 4 times at this point, and the one time he called was the one time I had a hand, and he folded on the turn, so I had it going through my mind that he could be a little bit tilted.

#9 KingJames

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 07:29 AM

View Postfighter, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 6:50 AM, said:

I would fold turn. 8 is a terrible card for him to keep bluffing on. I would fold river too. I give unknown people credit for having a hand the first time they fire three barrels. I also give credit to unknowns the first time they overbet bluff. This random just did both. While you have close to the top of your range in this spot, I doubt he knowns that or is thinking that. All he is really thinking about is Vegas and the ****ing Mirage.10nl should be about trying to value bet really thin since people don't play back often enough and call too much. You just became an example of that by calling 3 streets + an over bet with a dominated ace. Solid poker man, no need to hero call without a read.
This is a reallllllly good post by fighter :club:

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 7:33 AM, said:

I have to disagree with you on one part to mentioned. I routinely see people play A6 and even A5 like the nuts when they hit their ace. Its rarer for A2-A4, but A5+ is certainly in that group. I always scratch my head when it happens, but now I have scabs because it happens so often at these levels.
As fighter mentioned, until you see this villain play A-rag as the nuts, don't assume. It will be very expensive.

View Postfighter, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 7:52 AM, said:

I have limited experience with 10nl so I'll have to let someone else comment on level dynamics. I believe that in this situation they are overplaying their aces unless they think that you are going to get attached with 4x, 5x or spades. It is for this reason that I advise against a call down here without a read. If you see him barreling off at a really high frequency then call down. If you see him going for thin value against other regs (not fish, they should have a modified range vs fish) call. If you haven't, I would let this go. You are trying to expolit someone for value betting too thin when you haven't seen them do that before.
I played 50k hands at 10nl 6max earlier this year. I want to refer back to what fighter said about beating the micros by value betting the loose/passive players who make the mistake of calling too much. Don't be on of those players.As played, I would be folding this river 99% of the time. I am folding the turn often but based on our relative hand strength and bet sizing, I don't mind the turn call.
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#10 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 08:03 AM

View PostKingJames, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 10:29 AM, said:

This is a reallllllly good post by fighter :club: As fighter mentioned, until you see this villain play A-rag as the nuts, don't assume. It will be very expensive.
^^^^^ EXACTLY!! I play alot of .25 NL, and I know what OP means about guys showing up there with Ax. BUT when you said villain was tight, that was the key. Generally the loose crappy players show up with crap, or catch a miracle, but then you can bust him a few hands later. I assume he showed you the AA sailboat here. If he is that tight that is the only hand I can see him overbetting here with. At any rate, really tight players here only play PP and AK AQ, unless it is Deerbox, or any of the other chinese human bots that are only AIPF with AA KK or AK. Always fold to them. Every once in a blue moon I have seen them show A10 suited, but that is rare. I think that guy got fired, becasue I have not seen it in a while. I have a list at home of those players if you need them.
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#11 Rawrr

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 08:13 AM

View PostCorvairShaggy, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 9:03 AM, said:

^^^^^ EXACTLY!! I play alot of .25 NL, and I know what OP means about guys showing up there with Ax. BUT when you said villain was tight, that was the key. Generally the loose crappy players show up with crap, or catch a miracle, but then you can bust him a few hands later. I assume he showed you the AA sailboat here. If he is that tight that is the only hand I can see him overbetting here with. At any rate, really tight players here only play PP and AK AQ, unless it is Deerbox, or any of the other chinese human bots that are only AIPF with AA KK or AK. Always fold to them. Every once in a blue moon I have seen them show A10 suited, but that is rare. I think that guy got fired, becasue I have not seen it in a while. I have a list at home of those players if you need them.
I didn't mean that he was tight, only that I had few hands on him and that I hadn't seen any of this from him.He showed Q2oAbout the AIPF and whatever else, you seriously lost me and I have no idea what you are talking about / what AIPF means.

#12 KingJames

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 08:28 AM

AIPF means all in pre flop
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#13 Acid_Knight

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 09:11 AM

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 9:13 AM, said:

About the AIPF and whatever else, you seriously lost me and I have no idea what you are talking about / what AIPF means.
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#14 KingJames

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 09:50 AM

View PostKingJames, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 10:28 AM, said:

AIPF means all in pre flop

View PostAcid_Knight, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

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#15 CorvairShaggy

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 09:59 AM

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 11:13 AM, said:

I didn't mean that he was tight, only that I had few hands on him and that I hadn't seen any of this from him.He showed Q2oAbout the AIPF and whatever else, you seriously lost me and I have no idea what you are talking about / what AIPF means.
Watch that guy a little more. At the 10nl level, he probably spews alot like that, so if you catch him doing that another time or two, or he shows down with mid pairs and marginal hands, then put a note on him as easy money, and bust his ass the next time you get in this situation. These style of players will not pay attention to board texture, so it is hard to bluff them, but I would call against him all day with any A or top pair, unless he shows me otherwise. Also these guys are also bad about raising 2x-3x pre with any AJ AK KQ QJ style combos, and if the flop, turn and river comes all low cards, they will fire every street, so any pair here is good alot of times. Really you need to see at least 30 hands in a session to start to get a read on a player. 5-10 hands just won't cut it, unless they just play reallly bad.
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#16 KosinTrouble

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 10:15 AM

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 10:13 AM, said:

I didn't mean that he was tight, only that I had few hands on him and that I hadn't seen any of this from him.He showed Q2oAbout the AIPF and whatever else, you seriously lost me and I have no idea what you are talking about / what AIPF means.
Just make sure you are not thinking too results orientated.... yes the call worked this time, but without proper reads and some history from a villian I beleive this is a fold. if you have reads or history with villian that proves he is a bluffer then yes make the call. But against most unknowns this should be a fold as you will lose more times than not over the long hall.I also agree with fighters post above, good response!Kosin Trouble

#17 Rawrr

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 10:59 AM

View PostKosinTrouble, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 11:15 AM, said:

Just make sure you are not thinking too results orientated.... yes the call worked this time, but without proper reads and some history from a villian I beleive this is a fold. if you have reads or history with villian that proves he is a bluffer then yes make the call. But against most unknowns this should be a fold as you will lose more times than not over the long hall.I also agree with fighters post above, good response!Kosin Trouble
I am definitely not results oriented. I am more concerned with playing solid and improving than winning money, although that is a nice bonus, as long as I don't lose money. If I were results oriented, I probably wouldn't have posted this here.In any case, I talked it over with a friend, and even though I think I called for quite a few good reasons (not all listed here), I should have folded since the most important reason is that in the long run it likely isn't profitable, since I need to be right like 2/3 of the time here.

#18 DCJ001

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 11:13 AM

View PostRawrr, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 12:13 PM, said:

I didn't mean that he was tight, only that I had few hands on him and that I hadn't seen any of this from him.He showed Q2oAbout the AIPF and whatever else, you seriously lost me and I have no idea what you are talking about / what AIPF means.
God call. Obviously, you were up against the Tiger Woods look-a-like that Daniel lost chips to in Portugal. You can teach Daniel a few things:Danie Negreanu said:

Quote

So I'm out of the tournament. I was card dead throughout, but still got up to 60,000 before losing them all in level 7. I thought I played pretty good and got bluffed by a Tiger Woods look a like. I posted two pics of him on twitter www.twitter.com/RealKidPokerHe raised the button, small blind called, and I called from the big blind with Ac 9c. Flop was A-A-10 two diamonds and we checked to Tiger who bet 2000, I called. Turn an 8 I check called 3000. The river was the 7d and I checked, he went all in for like 12,000. Yeah, I have three aces, but I can ONLY beat a total bluff. Based on how he was playing up until that point, I saw no reason to think he was bluffing here. I folded... and he showed Q-2 off! LOL, oops, nice hand Tiger.


#19 Rawrr

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 11:19 AM

View PostDCJ001, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 12:13 PM, said:

God call. Obviously, you were up against the Tiger Woods look-a-like that Daniel lost chips to in Portugal. You can teach Daniel a few things:Danie Negreanu said:
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#20 Ninja Ace

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 11:34 AM

Haven't read responses but it looks like 3bet preflop and fold river.

View Postfighter, on Monday, August 30th, 2010, 4:50 AM, said:

I would fold turn. 8 is a terrible card for him to keep bluffing on.
Can we really fold the turn given it's a half pot bet though? I could see to a 3/4 or PSB but half seems weak/tight imo
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