35 replies to this topic

[Pot Odds RAC]

Greektown Casino Detroit $1/$2 Tx NL Full RingHero: $300 UTG has a table image as slight LAG, but in reality is TAGVillain: $400 UTG +1 Solid TAG Hasn't played many handsPreflopHero: A 9 LimpVillain and 3 or four others Limp Flop J 5 2 :diamond:Hero CheckVillain $25Fold to HeroHero callTurn 5 :spade:Hero CheckVillain bet $35Hero?

[Ninja Ace]

He bet 25 into like 10? sounds like a set that hates money. I like this if you fold the turn. Between the board pairing which could leave us drawing dead and being OOP with 1 street to get paid, I think we can't peel a second time despite us getting a much better price.And as much as I despise open limping, it just gets punished like never at 1/2

[rrumsey]

open pre ( or fold if full ring), c/r or just lead the flop. c/c seems terrible imo.

[Acid_Knight]

Yeah, definitely don't open limp hands like this in a FR game UTG, just fold them or come in for a raise if you're in later position.On that flop, what hands can he have that really want to put in a lot of money? Sets are basically it since it's pretty hard to have 2 pair on that board. When the board is so dry and he's not repping much, that's when you want to c/r a FD because he can't have many hands to call with. Since it's so dry though, you should also be leading since there just aren't a wide range of hands that people will continue with on a board like that.

[Pot Odds RAC]

Yeah. Thanks for the feedback guys.

[Ninja Ace]

Acid_Knight, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 8:05 AM, said:

Since it's so dry though, you should also be leading since there just aren't a wide range of hands that people will continue with on a board like that.

Leading is pretty terrible when we've got 4 other players behind in a limped pot with a nut draw. Best case scenario we are buying ace outs, but playing for one pair hands multiway is pretty stupid. We want as many players in as possible. Save trying to pick up limped pots for preflop play, here we want someone to make a deep mistake.

[Acid_Knight]

Ninja Ace, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 5:17 PM, said:

Leading is pretty terrible when we've got 4 other players behind in a limped pot with a nut draw. Best case scenario we are buying ace outs, but playing for one pair hands multiway is pretty stupid. We want as many players in as possible. Save trying to pick up limped pots for preflop play, here we want someone to make a deep mistake.

We're betting to win the pot. What do we care if everyone folds? We have ace high. We don't want any players in the pot, because we have ACE HIGH. The board is dry and doesn't really hit limping range too much except for that J out there so our bet should win the pot a decent amount of the time. Also since we are betting into 4 people, it'll look pretty strong and we might be able to barrel someone off of QJ or JT if they have that. Worse case scenario, we get called and we have to hit our draw. This is literally one of the most basic poker concepts there are. It's called semibluffing.

[Ninja Ace]

Acid_Knight, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 5:47 PM, said:

We're betting to win the pot. What do we care if everyone folds? We have ace high. We don't want any players in the pot, because we have ACE HIGH. The board is dry and doesn't really hit limping range too much except for that J out there so our bet should win the pot a decent amount of the time. Also since we are betting into 4 people, it'll look pretty strong and we might be able to barrel someone off of QJ or JT if they have that. Worse case scenario, we get called and we have to hit our draw.

I'm not sure the last time you played 1/2NL was, but I do all the time and I can't remember the last time I saw 5 players to the flop without a showdown regardless of action (no reads so stake defaults come into play ).

Acid_Knight, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 5:47 PM, said:

This is literally one of the most basic poker concepts there are. It's called semibluffing.

Don't ****ing condescend me seriously. You need your FE to be really high in this spot for it not to be pissing money away, even if it is a small bet. This is one of the most basic concepts about semi-bluffing, YOU DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU HAVE FE. We're playing at a stake where limp/calling UTG with Q4 sooooooted is standard. Their hand ranges are literally ATC in this spot, and they like to put you on bluffs, even if you've played one hand in 5 hours. 1/2 is OMFG NO WAY waiting for the bus simple. Play fast only for value, and implied odds are huge.Now... if this were a 2-5 game or higher, this hand is terrible. DUCY?This game is filled with calling stations and nits... and the nits are essentially TAG preflop and stations postflop. This is why you can get away with things like limping low pairs and Axs's and anything with the word bluff in it becomes a sad face option. It's irritating because poker is a lot better when you can do fun things with airballs, but unfortunately and oddly enough that requires some competence on the part of your opponents.

[KingJames]

AK vs NA round 4. Let's hope this fight goes a full 16!

[Ninja Ace]

KingJames, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 6:24 PM, said:

AK vs NA round 4. Let's hope this fight goes a full 16!

LOLI just got annoyed that Matt thinks I ignore the simple concepts he taught me when I was first learnding pokerz. Oddly enough, I can dig up the first thread where we had a back and forth... and he was bashing his head against the wall where I swore we had enough FE on a semibluff in a multiway pot o_O

[Pot Odds RAC]

Ninja Ace, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 10:14 PM, said:

Don't ****ing condescend me seriously. You need your FE to be really high in this spot for it not to be pissing money away, even if it is a small bet. This is one of the most basic concepts about semi-bluffing, YOU DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU HAVE FE. We're playing at a stake where limp/calling UTG with Q4 sooooooted is standard. Their hand ranges are literally ATC in this spot, and they like to put you on bluffs, even if you've played one hand in 5 hours. 1/2 is OMFG NO WAY waiting for the bus simple. Play fast only for value, and implied odds are huge.Now... if this were a 2-5 game or higher, this hand is terrible. DUCY?

Talk about condescending.Seriously. Don't take yourself so seriously.I don't know where you're playing poker, but this is assuming moronic play. While 1/2 isn't nosebleed and 3 out of 10 players are morons, we can't assume everyone will overplay Q/4. Please give advice assuming that opponents and OPs aren't brain dead.

[Ninja Ace]

Pot Odds RAC, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 7:21 PM, said:

Talk about condescending.Seriously. Don't take yourself so seriously.I don't know where you're playing poker, but this is assuming moronic play. While 1/2 isn't nosebleed and 3 out of 10 players are morons, we can't assume everyone will overplay Q/4. Please give advice assuming that opponents and OPs aren't brain dead.

Your opponent bet $25 into $10 and you want me to assume nobody is brain dead?The reality 1/2 live is filled with 2 types of players, bad players, and worse players. No, not everyone will overplay garbo but I've yet to see anybody who actually has a balanced game. There certainly are "grinders" at this level, but the reality is they are playing very robotic-ally because it works.And I'm not condescending. I'm just right a lot and since i swear and say things without fluffies kisses and rainbows peoples feelings get hurt... without realizing that I'm always talking about poker and not the poster.

[Acid_Knight]

Ninja Ace, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 7:14 PM, said:

I'm not sure the last time you played 1/2NL was, but I do all the time and I can't remember the last time I saw 5 players to the flop without a showdown regardless of action (no reads so stake defaults come into play ). Don't ****ing condescend me seriously. You need your FE to be really high in this spot for it not to be pissing money away, even if it is a small bet. This is one of the most basic concepts about semi-bluffing, YOU DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU HAVE FE. We're playing at a stake where limp/calling UTG with Q4 sooooooted is standard. Their hand ranges are literally ATC in this spot, and they like to put you on bluffs, even if you've played one hand in 5 hours. 1/2 is OMFG NO WAY waiting for the bus simple. Play fast only for value, and implied odds are huge.Now... if this were a 2-5 game or higher, this hand is terrible. DUCY?This game is filled with calling stations and nits... and the nits are essentially TAG preflop and stations postflop. This is why you can get away with things like limping low pairs and Axs's and anything with the word bluff in it becomes a sad face option. It's irritating because poker is a lot better when you can do fun things with airballs, but unfortunately and oddly enough that requires some competence on the part of your opponents.

We don't need our FE to be really high here. I'm talking about leading a dry flop into 4 people in an unraised pot. We're not risking much and there aren't many hands for people to call us with. If people are limp/calling Q4 and shit like that, then our play becomes even better because instead of having to worry about people only limping weakish decent hands like small pocket pairs and middling cards like JT or QJ, we are gonna have people in there with K6ss and 68o and stuff like that, which means that they will have even fewer hands to call our lead with. That's why we should lead here. IF they have ATC, then it's great because ATC misses that flop a whole lot. There is exactly one OESD (34) and a few gutshots and then worse FDs. We should lead at the pot and depending on who calls us and what our reads are on them, we'll proceed accordingly. If we get called by a taggy guy who's gonna have top pair and we're sure we can't barrel him off of it, then we won't barrel. If we get called by a huge station who probably has 2nd pair and won't fold it, we'll know what to do. If we get called by a weak tight guy who always fears the worst, then he's gonna have to hold on for 3 barrels with JT or whatever he's got. The point is that by leading at the pot we now have the initiative in a pot where nobody had it going in and we force other people to make decisions about their hands instead of us checking and losing the chance to put other people to decisions.You're making all kinds of assumptions about the other players at the table and in the hand. The only reason we're provided with a read on the guy who bet is because we checked and now we have to figure out what he's doing instead of it being the other way around. Now we're on the defensive. Now we're guessing. Now we're the one who's forced to have a hand. Also by betting our hand, we are betting for value against a number of hands that call us. If our opponent has JT, we have 40% equity or so against that hand. IF they have a lower FD, they're calling and can only win with their 6 outs. If they have 56 or whatever for 2nd pair, then we're a slight favorite assuming we can figure out that our 9 might be good. It's not like we're closing our eyes and betting into a field of people who are all supposed to have decent hands or against whom we can't assume we have FE. There aren't many hands for them to call us with, we have the nut draw and an overcard to the board and nobody has raised preflop so we can take the lead and force them to give us information about their hands or fold if they don't want to.As far as condescending, I don't post much here anymore. It seems that every time that I come and read a thread, you're talking down to people or you're talking like your advice is THE advice. Granted, I don't read many threads, but the ones I have read, that's what I see. I come in and offer my advice and my logic behind it for the OP. You come in and blindly tell me that I'm stupid and you act as if I've never played 1/2 live before or as if I'm approaching this as if I'm playing 5/10 or 10/20. I'm not. The line here is pretty standard. If you're limping A9s UTG, which I contend is a habit you want to lose immediately, then what flops are you ever going to bet if not this one? Are we waiting for 923r? 99x, A9x? We get an incredibly good flop for our and and we should bet it.

Ninja Ace, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 5:17 PM, said:

Leading is pretty terrible when we've got 4 other players behind in a limped pot with a nut draw. Best case scenario we are buying ace outs, but playing for one pair hands multiway is pretty stupid. We want as many players in as possible. Save trying to pick up limped pots for preflop play, here we want someone to make a deep mistake.

I'm talking down to you because you're talking down to me. Leading isn't terrible. Best case scenario is that we get everyone to fold. Why are you saying that "trying to pick up pots is for preflop play"? Do you realize that people miss the flop 2/3 of the time? Pots are way easier to pick up postflop and those pots have more money in them. Those are the pots you should be fighting for. Those are the pots that will increase your winrate. Figure out when nobody has anything or nobody's strong enough to put in a lot of money, and then start winning pots. If there's a guy in there who's got top pair and doesn't like to fold, that's not a pot you're gonna try and take down, but there are so many others that you're supposed to win because the better players recognize when nobody has anything and they get in there and they scoop up that money.What "deep mistake" is someone going to make here? We've got ace high, we need to make a hand before someone else can make a mistake. If we start checking, we might get barreled off of the hand by something like 78dd and then we're the one making a mistake because we didn't take the lead in the pot. Nobody's supposed to have much on that board, so it's not like we should be playing the hand in some way to cooler a person who can't fold a set. We should be playing pots to maximize our equity and turn a profit. Checking and getting lost in pots like this isn't going to do that.

Ninja Ace, on Friday, August 27th, 2010, 1:48 AM, said:

Your opponent bet $25 into $10 and you want me to assume nobody is brain dead?The reality 1/2 live is filled with 2 types of players, bad players, and worse players. No, not everyone will overplay garbo but I've yet to see anybody who actually has a balanced game. There certainly are "grinders" at this level, but the reality is they are playing very robotic-ally because it works.And I'm not condescending. I'm just right a lot and since i swear and say things without fluffies kisses and rainbows peoples feelings get hurt... without realizing that I'm always talking about poker and not the poster.

Maybe he bet 25 into 10 because he's played a ton of pots like this before and he's got 34dd and knows that he's got a lot of equity and that nobody should have anything to call him? I doubt that's the thought process there, but we don't have a read that this guy is an idiot, so maybe, just maybe, he knows what he's doing.You are condescending, to a lot of the players who post here. You may swear that you're right a lot, but your logic often shows, to me at least, that you're looking at and approaching things the wrong way. You can state your opinion and not come off like an ******* if you want to. I deliberately chose my words in the other post and I know what I meant to come off as. My default posts are no-nonsense and I try and pack as much logic and reason into them as possible for 3 reasons.1. It's much easier for everyone else to understand what I'm saying and why I'm saying things so that it helps them learn2. It's generally harder for people to argue with me and tell me I'm wrong if I'm presenting facts instead of opinions3. I don't post make many posts in spots where I think I'm likely wrong too oftenYou may not like it, but I'm a better player than you are. Instead of closing your eyes and arguing with me and telling me I'm wrong without being able to back things up, why don't you stop for a second and think to yourself "hey, this guy who's been a solid winning poker player both live and online for the last 4.5+ years at stakes much higher than the ones that we're discussing is taking his time and energy to try and explain concepts about poker to me which is basically like him giving away money since he's telling me how to be a better player and that will make me money, so maybe I should listen to what he's saying and think about why he's saying something that's different than what I thought was right..."Am I saying that to make myself feel better or to make you look like an *******? That's up to you. I'm saying it because when I was posting here every day and reading every thread, I loved it when the players who I knew were better than me came in and posted and said something different than what I said. I can look back on some of the things I used to post and laugh at them because of how wrong I was and then read the posts from the palyers who I knew were better than me and now that I'm better, I can see the difference. I know what they were saying. The only reason I know what they were saying is because I just assumed I was wrong since they were the better players and they knew more than I did and had more experience than I did and they were saying something different and there must've been a reason for it. Listening to those people is the fastest way to get better at poker. Not to sound pompous (and this will) but you should be soooooo thankful that people like myself or the other handful of guys who used to post here regularly might still come back and offer our advice to you guys. It's free advice on how to become better at poker from guys who have been doing it for years. You don't get that from a lot of players because by making other people better at poker, I effectively hurt my bottom line.So Ninja Ace, I don't know you, but basically take a deep breath and listen to the better players and think for a second about why they might be saying something different than you before you start typing and telling them that their line is terrible because believe it or not, I'm not gonna be coming in here and posting any advice on any lines that are going to be terrible. I know what I'm talking about, I promise.

[Acid_Knight]

KingJames, on Thursday, August 26th, 2010, 7:24 PM, said:

AK vs NA round 4. Let's hope this fight goes a full 16!

It won't. I don't need to back up my advice any further and I think that the people who know better will know who's right and who's wrong. I only hope that the people who are still trying to learn here can separate the good advice from the bad advice without people like me coming in here and posting novels on the subject.

[Pot Odds RAC]

Acid_Knight, on Friday, August 27th, 2010, 1:52 PM, said:

...I loved it when the players who I knew were better than me came in and posted and said something different than what I said...

Well, I certainly have appreciated your advice and stories from the felt as I have improved over the years.

[KingJames]

Acid_Knight, on Friday, August 27th, 2010, 11:52 AM, said:

I know what I'm talking about, I promise.

I would like it known that I have met this guy IRL and pretty sure having man-crush on him is completely cool/normal.

[Ninja Ace]

ZOMG WALL OF TEXTPeople do indeed miss the flop 2/3rds of the time and everybody and their mother who c-bets knows that. Do you realize that 0.66 to the fourth power is 19%? Sounds a whole lot less effective hmmm. We do have to get through 4 players after all.And I'm saying firing at multiway limped pots is pointless. This isn't a raised pot nor is it a heads up or even three way pot, it's not worth taking pot control out of our game until we make a hand. Like its such a basic Sklansky concept that you don't bluff into a ridiculous amount of people it's not even funny.What if we get raised? Then we have a hand we can't fold OOP getting into some gross spots. In that situation the poster posts here and we all give advice on how the semibluff was pointless.I mean you're talking about crap like barreling retards off of top pair. It's the toppest pair they're not going to fold! Would you sit down at a .01/.02 online game and tell someone to add the double barreling in limped pots to their game? It's absolutely ridiculous.The whole reason set mining works is the exact same reason we don't want to semi-bluff here. And set mining is passive play hoping for *shock face* a deep mistake.What boards are we waiting for? 99x , A9x, XdXdXd. Not even 923r. Yeah... it's that nitty.Stop worrying about the "maybes" and the "what if he's doing this with" that are low percentage portions of his range. Do people show up with this shit? Absolutely. Do they show up with it nearly as often? Not at all.See how nice and concise that was?edt: the one thing I won't contest is that removing the open limp from a game is never ever bad. I despise it, but the reality is that at 1/2, sadly, you can get away with it.

[Acid_Knight]

I guess everything that I said was just flat out wrong. Nevermind me then.

[BaseJester]

Pot Odds RAC, on Wednesday, August 25th, 2010, 4:11 PM, said:

Greektown Casino Detroit $1/$2 Tx NL Full RingHero: $300 UTG has a table image as slight LAG, but in reality is TAGVillain: $400 UTG +1 Solid TAG Hasn't played many handsPreflopHero: A 9 LimpVillain and 3 or four others Limp Flop J 5 2 :diamond:Hero Check

Is this 3 or 4 limpers plus the hero plus the blinds? You don't show the blinds acting on the flop. Maybe the posters are making different evaluations because it's unclear whether 7 players saw this flop or 4. The stack sizes of the limpers is relevant to that decision, too.

[Pot Odds RAC]

I've pretty much had it with NA's "advice". He doesn't respect me, why should I respect him? Even if he is right as often as he thinks I'd rather not have to wade thru his attitude to mine for his nuggets of gold. His signal to noise ratio isn't worth it for me.If that makes me more ignorant as a result, then so be it. I'll be blissful in my ignorance.