28 replies to this topic

[kaisersoze12]

Is there ever a time to raise the big blind when 6-9 people are already in without a raise?I was in a 10 handed 10-20 game recently (probably playing higher than I should so I may have played a little timid) and was dealt AA in the BB. First three players to act limped in, and by the time it got to me 7 were in already. I was thinking my raise would give away more of my hand than is worth it so I checked to see the flop. Even if I did raise, absolutely zero of the field would be thinned. I know I am still the favorite to win the pot in this case, but much less of a favorite and I am pretty sure I will need help to win.Was I wrong here? In the long run I guess if I am a statistical favorite I should get as much money in when I am ahead, but I also thought that if I did get help, no one would really be able to think I have aces.Thoughts?btw - some one flopped trips, someone flopped two pair and someone hit the nut flush on the river. I would've had nothing but AA. I mucked the turn after lots of betting.

[wrto4556]

I raise AA-TT, AKs-AJs, and KQs from the position you described.It's been argued that you can raise Axs and middle pocket pairs, but I dont feel comfortable.

[Diboss]

Don't post results.I think Sklansky suggests raising here, as you do have the statistically best hand, and you'll win a lot more than 12.5% of the time - 1/8Post-flop though, AA loses a lot of value in multi-way pots. When there's a draw on the flop, then raises benefit the draws more than the best hand (Morton's Theorem). If trips hit, then you're drawing to two outs, at 11.5-1, another reason why a raise preflop would possibly help you (or someone else drawing for that matter). But mathematically, you're gonna win this a good 69%+ of the time, so raise like you never raised before, if you're lucky, one of those players will reraise and maybe thin the field, which would be an additional benefit. I for instance would reraise if I had 97s with 7 other people in the pot.

[Jordan]

kaisersoze12 said:

Is there ever a time to raise the big blind when 6-9 people are already in without a raise?I was in a 10 handed 10-20 game recently (probably playing higher than I should so I may have played a little timid) and was dealt AA in the BB. First three players to act limped in, and by the time it got to me 7 were in already. I was thinking my raise would give away more of my hand than is worth it so I checked to see the flop. Even if I did raise, absolutely zero of the field would be thinned. I know I am still the favorite to win the pot in this case, but much less of a favorite and I am pretty sure I will need help to win.Was I wrong here? In the long run I guess if I am a statistical favorite I should get as much money in when I am ahead, but I also thought that if I did get help, no one would really be able to think I have aces.Thoughts?btw - some one flopped trips, someone flopped two pair and someone hit the nut flush on the river. I would've had nothing but AA. I mucked the turn after lots of betting.

I'd raise here. You might get "lucky" too and give an EP limper the chance to re/raise. At this point, facing a raise and re/raise so people may lay down there hands. Thus, you can work after the flop a little better. - Jordan

[Royal_Tour]

kaisersoze12 said:

Is there ever a time to raise the big blind when 6-9 people are already in without a raise?I was in a 10 handed 10-20 game recently (probably playing higher than I should so I may have played a little timid) and was dealt AA in the BB. First three players to act limped in, and by the time it got to me 7 were in already. I was thinking my raise would give away more of my hand than is worth it so I checked to see the flop. Even if I did raise, absolutely zero of the field would be thinned. I know I am still the favorite to win the pot in this case, but much less of a favorite and I am pretty sure I will need help to win.Was I wrong here? In the long run I guess if I am a statistical favorite I should get as much money in when I am ahead, but I also thought that if I did get help, no one would really be able to think I have aces.Thoughts?btw - some one flopped trips, someone flopped two pair and someone hit the nut flush on the river. I would've had nothing but AA. I mucked the turn after lots of betting.

Oh dear GOD!!!..Why oh why are you playing 10 - 20 if your not going to raise AA with this many callers?Always raise with AA, Slow playing them against 7 other players is not "fancy".. its stupid!.. (heads up., different story.,)A raise doesnt say "hey, he's got ace ace".. it says.. "get the fuck back limpers.. i'm taking control of this pot"*please... no slow AA

[amarillotg]

wrto4556 said:

I raise AA-TT, AKs-AJs, and KQs from the position you described.It's been argued that you can raise Axs and middle pocket pairs, but I dont feel comfortable.

wrto, are you not raising AKo and AQo here also?

[wrto4556]

oops.I ment for those to go in there, too.

[chipsnski]

[quote="Royal_Tour"][quote=kaisersoze12]Is there ever a time to raise the big blind when 6-9 people are already in without a raise?A raise doesnt say "hey, he's got ace ace".. it says.. "get the fuck back limpers.. i'm taking control of this pot"*please... no slow AA[/quote][comicbookguyfromSimpsons]BEST LINE OF THE DAY![comicbookguyfromSimpsons]BTW, can i use that line at the table?"get the fu c k back limpers.. i'm taking control of this pot"

[Royal_Tour]

[quote="chipsnski"][quote=Royal_Tour][quote=kaisersoze12]Is there ever a time to raise the big blind when 6-9 people are already in without a raise?A raise doesnt say "hey, he's got ace ace".. it says.. "get the fuck back limpers.. i'm taking control of this pot"*please... no slow AA[/quote][comicbookguyfromSimpsons]BEST LINE OF THE DAY![comicbookguyfromSimpsons]BTW, can i use that line at the table?"get the fu c k back limpers.. i'm taking control of this pot"[/quote]hahaha... for a small fee.,

[chipsnski]

I am supposed to play tonight if i get there before the place fills up.If i use the line (and i have a feeling i will...) i will credit you .50 per usage!

[doudave]

i dont see what the point of a raise is in this situation, if it was no limit its an obvious raise but in limit the raise will do absolutely nothing except pump the pot and make draws easier to call. your chance of winning at this point is like 30%. a raise will no make anyone go out becasue the they will be getting like 7 to 1 for their money. people are saying take control of the pot, kinda hard to do that with your position, never really figured out how you can take control with 7 guys behind u and in a limit game, like someone to explain that one to me.

[Royal_Tour]

doudave said:

i dont see what the point of a raise is in this situation, if it was no limit its an obvious raise but in limit the raise will do absolutely nothing except pump the pot and make draws easier to call.  your chance of winning at this point is like 30%.  a raise will no make anyone go out becasue the they will be getting like 7 to 1 for their money.  people are saying take control of the pot, kinda hard to do that with your position, never really figured out how you can take control with 7 guys behind u and in a limit game, like someone to explain that one to me.

Because you raise preflop., hoping to get a 3-bet, or at least 1 person out, and then you lead out post flop, hoping to lose a few more players. The only hands you should be affraid of are, flopped sets, flopped 2 pair., and draws.. Most of the time you want people on draws to call your raises, because they are exactly what they sound like "draws".. meaning nothing. And more often than not, they will NOT hit them. (Simple math.)..

[TheIceman05]

doudave said:

i dont see what the point of a raise is in this situation, if it was no limit its an obvious raise but in limit the raise will do absolutely nothing except pump the pot and make draws easier to call.  your chance of winning at this point is like 30%.  a raise will no make anyone go out becasue the they will be getting like 7 to 1 for their money.  people are saying take control of the pot, kinda hard to do that with your position, never really figured out how you can take control with 7 guys behind u and in a limit game, like someone to explain that one to me.

This comes up like once a week, except the BB or SB hand is usually something a lot worse than AA (KQs, for example). I inevitably end up sitting in front of my computer, refreshing the thread every 10 seconds, vehemently defending the "raise, *******!" option, and getting a terrible migraine. Your preflop equity is so much better than every other player that NOT raising here is an absolutely terrible situation. You raise for value when you're putting in less money than the pot will pay you back from said raise over the longrun. Since we have the BEST POSSIBLE HAND, the pot has to pay us off better in the longrun than it will everyone else, so a raise here is automatic. You raise not to encourage folders, but because the more that goes into the pot, the better we fare. Assume you'll only win 30% of the time, here. What's the value of a raise with 7 likely callers? .3(8) [8 players, including ourselves multiplied by the chance we'll win] = 2.4 bets - 1 bet (cost of raise) = +1.4 betsHoly crap! That's lots of money! The thing is, though, we're probably closer to a 40% favorite (I believe I ran this exact simulation w/poker stove once, and it was like 38.6)! So, to not raise here is a horrendous, horrendous mistake, and to not do so is to fundamentally misunderstand the basic concepts of poker.Please, feel free to disagree so I can have another ridiculous argument.Ice

[Outlaw_IA]

i like to raise, sometimes 1st or 2nd postion will re-raise and you will get a few people out, and build a nice pot.

[jayboogie]

Definitely raise AA and KK in the big blind if it's unraised regardless of how many callers you get. Yes, you won't knock anybody out, but your building a big pot for your Aces or Kings when you have the pre-flop edge over everybody else. Will you win the hand all that often? Probably not, but when you do win, you'll scoop a rather large pot.Other hands to raise agaist 6-7 limpers are QQ(sometimes), AK suited, AQ suited and that's probably where I draw the line. Ocassionally raise 78 suited and hands like this to build a pot for a good draw, but don't do this too often, it's just a play to mix it up and to win a big pot with a well disguised hand once in a while. Raising JJ and TT in this spot will usually just be like throwing money away, because they will almost never hold up and your only drawing to 2 outs to improve. A lot of the time what you do in this spot depends on the type of game your in, what hands your opponents are likely to limp in with. Even QQ in this spot is debatable because again Queens do not play well multi-way either and usually need to improve against 6 or 7 players to scoop the pot. Most of the time I don't raise with them especially if I'm in a no fold'em type game. I see ppl raising AK, AQ, AJ, even AT offsuit all the time and see them dumping money all the time. These hands do not play well multi-way and need to be played very carefully in a limped pot with several callers. Even if you flop top pair, you should not get carried away here against such a large field.

[TheIceman05]

jayboogie said:

Definitely raise AA and KK in the big blind if it's unraised regardless of how many callers you get.  Yes, you won't knock anybody out, but your building a big pot for your Aces or Kings when you have the pre-flop edge over everybody else.  Will you win the hand all that often?  Probably not, but when you do win, you'll scoop a rather large pot.Other hands to raise agaist 6-7 limpers are QQ(sometimes), AK suited, AQ suited and that's probably where I draw the line.  Ocassionally raise 78 suited and hands like this to build a pot for a good draw, but don't do this too often, it's just a play to mix it up and to win a big pot with a well disguised hand once in a while.  Raising JJ and TT in this spot will usually just be like throwing money away, because they will almost never hold up and your only drawing to 2 outs to improve.  A lot of the time what you do in this spot depends on the type of game your in, what hands your opponents are likely to limp in with. Even QQ in this spot is debatable because again Queens do not play well multi-way either and usually need to improve against 6 or 7 players to scoop the pot.  Most of the time I don't raise with them especially if I'm in a no fold'em type game.  I see ppl raising AK, AQ, AJ, even AT offsuit all the time and see them dumping money all the time.  These hands do not play well multi-way and need to be played very carefully in a limped pot with several callers.  Even if you flop top pair, you should not get carried away here against such a large field.

You should be raising hands like AJs, and KQs, too. Not raising with QQ is a joke. You have a massive edge over 7 random limpers, and your hand is going to hold up a lot more than 1 out of 8 times. You really need to open up and raise for value in the BB with hands that figure to win more than random hands.Ice

[doudave]

i agree that the only thing a raise would do at this time is give the pot value, i truly disagree about the fact that this will scare anybody, becasue it wont, lets just put it like this way if the first limper was willing to limp in why would he not see another bet now that there is 7 other callers and from there everyone else will have the same exact thinking.now for value this can be a double edge sword becasue now your going to have everybody going for draws because of value. now against one person sure you want a chaser but against 6 or 7 callers not sur you want everyone chasing. ask yourself this when was the last time you saw aces win a 6 or 7 multiway pot, hardly ever becasuse those hands are usually won by a str8 or a flush, the reason for that is the value makes everyone see the river for their miracle card.

[TheIceman05]

doudave said:

i agree that the only thing a raise would do at this time is give the pot value, i truly disagree about the fact that this will scare anybody, becasue it wont, lets just put it like this way if the first limper was willing to limp in why would he not see another bet now that there is 7 other callers and from there everyone else will have the same exact thinking.now for value this can be a double edge sword becasue now your going to have everybody going for draws because of value.  now against one person sure you want a chaser but against 6 or 7 callers not sur you want everyone chasing.  ask yourself this when was the last time you saw aces win a 6 or 7 multiway pot, hardly ever becasuse those hands are usually won by a str8 or a flush, the reason for that is the value makes everyone see the river for their miracle card.

You misunderstand (<----------- polite).The equity you exploit before the flop by charging trash hands extra bets is significantly higher than the equity you give up by creating a pot that trashy hands can draw at. Does that make sense? Exploiting preflop equity will be of more value than manipulating the pot-size in order to create situations in which bad-players will be making a mistake to draw.This is true in all but the most extreme and rare of circumstances. Sklansky used to advocate (still advocates?) limping with AQ0 in mutliway pots to keep the potsize small and create a pot where he can effectively punish draws by raising post-flop, creating a situation where bad players will be making bigger mistakes. This does not apply to AA in the BB. Your hand has the best chance of winning by FAR, so not to raise here is a mathematically TERRIBLE play. Let me repeat. It's not even close. It's NOT EVEN CLOSE. It's an absolutely awful awful play. Ice

[jayboogie]

TheIceman05 said:

jayboogie said:

Definitely raise AA and KK in the big blind if it's unraised regardless of how many callers you get. Yes, you won't knock anybody out, but your building a big pot for your Aces or Kings when you have the pre-flop edge over everybody else. Will you win the hand all that often? Probably not, but when you do win, you'll scoop a rather large pot.Other hands to raise agaist 6-7 limpers are QQ(sometimes), AK suited, AQ suited and that's probably where I draw the line. Ocassionally raise 78 suited and hands like this to build a pot for a good draw, but don't do this too often, it's just a play to mix it up and to win a big pot with a well disguised hand once in a while. Raising JJ and TT in this spot will usually just be like throwing money away, because they will almost never hold up and your only drawing to 2 outs to improve. A lot of the time what you do in this spot depends on the type of game your in, what hands your opponents are likely to limp in with. Even QQ in this spot is debatable because again Queens do not play well multi-way either and usually need to improve against 6 or 7 players to scoop the pot. Most of the time I don't raise with them especially if I'm in a no fold'em type game. I see ppl raising AK, AQ, AJ, even AT offsuit all the time and see them dumping money all the time. These hands do not play well multi-way and need to be played very carefully in a limped pot with several callers. Even if you flop top pair, you should not get carried away here against such a large field.

You should be raising hands like AJs, and KQs, too. Not raising with QQ is a joke. You have a massive edge over 7 random limpers, and your hand is going to hold up a lot more than 1 out of 8 times. You really need to open up and raise for value in the BB with hands that figure to win more than random hands.Ice

I don't agree with raising QQ all the time. Simply because the pots you do win with QQ holding up will usually be small compared to the pots you lose with them. How do you play the overpair with the board 39T with 2 f the same suits on board, you bet and get 5 callers. Next card might be an offsuit 5, which looks like no help and suddenly you get raised? What do you do then? Your kinda stuck in this situation because there'll be so many hands that can beat you. Not many flops are going to look safe against limpers when you hold Queens, a lot of the time you don't know how far you behind you are and that's just the times you have an overpair, what about all the times an Ace or King flops? Every flop that comes unders for you pretty much is going to help somebody that limped in and if an Ace or King flops, your Queens are useless too. The only flops your looking for are 422 or something like that and when this happens, you probably won't get much action anyways. My point is a lot of the time you'll lose a big pot with the Queens and the rest of the time you may scoop a small pot, because you likely won't get action unless your beat. Also put into consideration your positional disadvantage as well and I don't think it's clear cut to always raise QQ, at least for me, but to each his own.

[TheIceman05]

(shrug) If you're losing money w/QQ, you're playing it wrong, man. I guess I'm not sure what to say. Just because you're not all that good at playing after the flop, that doesn't mean it's bad advice to raise from the BB with queens. See, unlike the other players at the table, you should be paying off good hands less and maximizing value more. That's why we raise with our good hands preflop. We can lay it down if we suspect we are beaten. They cannot, and will toss money into the pot indiscriminately.Ice