Jump to content


Turn Trips, Now What?


  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#21 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:46 AM

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 12:34 PM, said:

he might think his medium pocket pair is good and is trying to control the size of the pot (he's betting ~ half the pot)+ after the board pairs it's less likely we have a 9.
Exactly, so it's in our best interest to let him think he's value betting here if he has a hand like that. If we raise he's not allowed to pot control anymore and will more than likely fold. Given that with the fact that there are more bluffs in his range than medium pocket pairs, it's in our best interest to allow to continue to bet on the river. You're advocating for trying to play for stacks in this spot, and that's not what we should be doing. We need to be getting the most value out of our hand possible, by raising we are losing value. Let him do the bidding for us. He's not going to put in another cent unless he has a 9 or a boat (which is very unlikely here) if we raise.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#22 nutzzcase

nutzzcase

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,795 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:16 AM

View Postdonk4life, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 9:46 AM, said:

You're advocating for trying to play for stacks in this spot, and that's not what we should be doing. We need to be getting the most value out of our hand possible, by raising we are losing value. Let him do the bidding for us. He's not going to put in another cent unless he has a 9 or a boat (which is very unlikely here) if we raise.
I don't think we are getting any more value on the river.I mean from villain's perspective, what does he beat once we call the turn?

#23 Fade2241

Fade2241

    license to dream! lol

  • Members
  • 1,427 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Grindtown, USA
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Cash & MTT's

Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:28 AM

i agree with the call line on the turn, no point in raising there but i don't really like the open pf UTG+1 and A9 with your stack size. i fold pf.

#24 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:34 AM

View PostFade2241, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 1:28 PM, said:

i agree with the call line on the turn, no point in raising there but i don't really like the open pf UTG+1 and A9 with your stack size. i fold pf.
The table appears to be fairly deep, and if they're not playing back at him a lot then raising with a9s there is fine.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#25 nutzzcase

nutzzcase

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,795 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:47 AM

just a thought:is it bad to shove the turn just to reduce variance?(in a situation where we are rarely getting more value)

#26 Mercury69

Mercury69

    Half man! Half man!

  • Members
  • 14,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pftph!
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:56 AM

View Postdonk4life, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 1:46 PM, said:

Exactly, so it's in our best interest to let him think he's value betting here if he has a hand like that. If we raise he's not allowed to pot control anymore and will more than likely fold. Given that with the fact that there are more bluffs in his range than medium pocket pairs, it's in our best interest to allow to continue to bet on the river. You're advocating for trying to play for stacks in this spot, and that's not what we should be doing. We need to be getting the most value out of our hand possible, by raising we are losing value. Let him do the bidding for us. He's not going to put in another cent unless he has a 9 or a boat (which is very unlikely here) if we raise.
Ha! Closet bridge player!
"We had all the momentum. We were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look west, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark, that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." —Raoul Duke, Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

"Those are brave men knocking at the door. Let's go and kill them!" - Tyrion Lannister

#27 SuperJon

SuperJon

    <3

  • Members
  • 6,659 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 03 August 2010 - 01:12 PM

View PostMercury69, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 9:59 AM, said:

Isn't folding PF pretty standard for A9?
With everyone's stack size, and the fact there are antes, I think raising here is okay with A9s if you're comfortable post flop. Folding isn't horrible though.No one really has a resteal shoving stack, and if the shortstack SB shoves his less than 5BB stack, it's a pretty clear call I think. Also, if anyone does happen to shove for whatever reason, it's a pretty easy fold considering they're shoving on an UTG+1's open.

#28 FARGOpokerND

FARGOpokerND

    11-time National Champions!

  • Members
  • 6,163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo
  • Interests:POKER!
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO

Posted 03 August 2010 - 02:25 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 1:16 PM, said:

I don't think we are getting any more value on the river.I mean from villain's perspective, what does he beat once we call the turn?
You don't think the Villain will ever bluff the river?

#29 nutzzcase

nutzzcase

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,795 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 02:32 PM

View PostFARGOpokerND, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 3:25 PM, said:

You don't think the Villain will ever bluff the river?
it's unlikely imo.

#30 FARGOpokerND

FARGOpokerND

    11-time National Champions!

  • Members
  • 6,163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo
  • Interests:POKER!
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO

Posted 03 August 2010 - 02:57 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 5:32 PM, said:

it's unlikely imo.
And you don't think he will call any rivers if checked to you.I mean you advocated shoving the turn because he may "hero call" but you don't think he would make the hero call on the river if he checks to you?BTW I think he will bluff rivers because "omg he just called my turn bet...theres no way he has a 9 so now I can REP a 9 myself!!!"

#31 HighwayStar

HighwayStar

    Tangled up in blue.

  • Members
  • 8,103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, England

Posted 03 August 2010 - 03:05 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 7:47 PM, said:

just a thought:is it bad to shove the turn just to reduce variance?(in a situation where we are rarely getting more value)
Meh not really at this stage of a tournament.I do think plenty of people will donk something like 77/88/67/68 on this turn and some will call it off, some won't. Calling allows you to get value from those hands + his bluffs on ths river.
.

#32 nutzzcase

nutzzcase

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,795 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 03:07 PM

View PostFARGOpokerND, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 2:57 PM, said:

And you don't think he will call any rivers if checked to you.I mean you advocated shoving the turn because he may "hero call" but you don't think he would make the hero call on the river if he checks to you?BTW I think he will bluff rivers because "omg he just called my turn bet...theres no way he has a 9 so now I can REP a 9 myself!!!"
lets say we have AK and we decide to continuation bet the flop, are we calling the turn given our stack? wouldn't we shove or fold ?

#33 babylondonks

babylondonks

    I have had a perfectly wonderful evening

  • Members
  • 4,104 posts
  • Location:but this wasn't it.

Posted 03 August 2010 - 03:15 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Wednesday, August 4th, 2010, 4:16 AM, said:

I don't think we are getting any more value on the river.I mean from villain's perspective, what does he beat once we call the turn?
77/88, 65, 6x, 5x, even something like T8 or a float. But his tendency to donk turn with a made hand compared to air/a shitty drawy is going to be very skewed towards the draw.

View Postnutzzcase, on Wednesday, August 4th, 2010, 4:47 AM, said:

just a thought:is it bad to shove the turn just to reduce variance?(in a situation where we are rarely getting more value)
Meh, can't be terrible. But I think there's a ton more value to be had in this spot.

View Postnutzzcase, on Wednesday, August 4th, 2010, 9:07 AM, said:

lets say we have AK and we decide to continuation bet the flop, are we calling the turn given our stack? wouldn't we shove or fold ?
Err we'd be folding unless we decide to spazz out. So hands like mid pocket pairs have absolutely no reason to lead the turn because it just folds out almost all of our worse hands and then inflates the pot OOP. That's the opposite of pot control.

#34 FARGOpokerND

FARGOpokerND

    11-time National Champions!

  • Members
  • 6,163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fargo
  • Interests:POKER!
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO

Posted 03 August 2010 - 04:29 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 11:57 AM, said:

A call on the turn given the EP raise and our chip stack looks very strong so i really don't expect villain to bluff the river. I think villain could hero call us with worse(67,77,88...) if we shove the turn. if an 8 or 7 comes on the river we don't know where we are at (we could lose some value or get bluffed if he shoves).

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 6:07 PM, said:

lets say we have AK and we decide to continuation bet the flop, are we calling the turn given our stack? wouldn't we shove or fold ?
These two points totally contradict one another.Shoving is pretty much never an option if you think he will be hero calling.Nutzz...your posts are REALLY jumping all over the place while you try and defend your initial "no" statement.

#35 nutzzcase

nutzzcase

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,795 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:43 PM

View PostFARGOpokerND, on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2010, 4:29 PM, said:

These two points totally contradict one another.Shoving is pretty much never an option if you think he will be hero calling.Nutzz...your posts are REALLY jumping all over the place while you try and defend your initial "no" statement.
my point was that villain could perceive a shove on the turn as a bluff (since we could do it with A7,A8,AJ, AQ, AK...) and call with worse.If we call the turn, we almost never have those hands. (in other words, we are almost never bluffing which makes it difficult to extract value)

#36 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:56 PM

But there are more bluffs in his range than medium pocket pairs, which makes shoving less profitable. And if he has a 9 then we're more than likely getting his stack on the river anyway.You're too caught up with the fact that a villain will "hero call' with a medium pocket pair here, when in actuality his line in no way represents some type of medium pair type hand.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#37 jaxup1985

jaxup1985

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:19 AM

View PostTehtoe, on Monday, August 2nd, 2010, 6:44 PM, said:

nice answer, why not?
I actually agree with the no... what play do you make on the river if a 7 or 8 comes off and he shoves? Can you get away? DoubtfulIf he has the straight already... [b]you're not getting away[/b].... He was the pre flop from second position... If he has 10's or better.... he might get away... but more than likely at this level you're going to get paid off.Clearly any other 9 is paying you off.... and if he has a boat well then... you're not getting away..The point is... what hand do you put him on besides 10's or better that the money isn't going in here?May as well get it in now and snub out any shot of hitting a draw he may have had.

#38 jaxup1985

jaxup1985

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:20 AM

View Postjaxup1985, on Wednesday, August 4th, 2010, 6:19 AM, said:

I actually agree with the no... what play do you make on the river if a 7 or 8 comes off and he shoves? Can you get away? DoubtfulIf he has the straight already... [b]you're not getting away[/b].... He was the pre flop from second position... If he has 10's or better.... he might get away... but more than likely at this level you're going to get paid off.Clearly any other 9 is paying you off.... and if he has a boat well then... you're not getting away..The point is... what hand do you put him on besides 10's or better that the money isn't going in here?May as well get it in now and snub out any shot of hitting a draw he may have had.
Meant to say "he was the preflop raiser from second position"

#39 donk4life

donk4life

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 9,215 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:32 AM

Sure, lets shove because we're afraid of an opponent hitting an 8 outer on the river.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#40 Mercury69

Mercury69

    Half man! Half man!

  • Members
  • 14,244 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pftph!
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:16 AM

View Postdonk4life, on Wednesday, August 4th, 2010, 9:32 AM, said:

Sure, lets shove because we're afraid of an opponent hitting an 8 outer on the river.
Not disputing your comment, but you say that like hitting an 8 outer doesn't happen every other hand (which it does, but you're right in saying you should not play into that fear). It's just a risk that you have to take.
"We had all the momentum. We were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look west, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark, that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." —Raoul Duke, Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

"Those are brave men knocking at the door. Let's go and kill them!" - Tyrion Lannister




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users