8 replies to this topic

[CorvairShaggy]

O.K. The past few sessions I have played at a .25/.50 20-50bb 6-max tables, there has been a few players that open min-raise, and call min-raise from OOP a bunch. I know from reading here and seeing videos on PokerVT from JC (PrtyPSux)(he really dogs them out in the videos) that this is terrible. Now, before I play stupid, I wanted to ask a few questions first. With a open-min-raise and a call min-raise, what can/do they have? J8/Q7/T9, medium hands, etc. possible A low x??? Also, if you are going to 3-bet them pre-flop, how much if you were trying to just win it pre-flop? $3-$4 about right? With what cards would you want to try that with? Ax, K10^, any PP? If it goes to flop, would you want to play conservative or hit it hard, c/r and re-eval after that, c/c etc.? I am sure table flow would dictate more, but lets pretend that there is always light action post flop. No one is going crazy shoving, big betting, etc. Mostly min-bets, 1/2 pots on all types of boards. I may not be explaining very well, but I guess you get the point of the question.
Thanks!!

[rrumsey]

i would recommend avoiding the shallow tables to be honest, when you win someones stack it is so small it almost isnt worth it unless the table has built up their stacks, i mean the reward just to me doesn't seems to be worth the risk. but to answer your question, i think that in the shallow games they are going to min bet wide as a way of small balling the game and making it that they a higher # of effective bullets by minimizing the plays. I mean play it like limit holdem then if you really feel you wanna do these tables. A good person trying to use this strategy could in theory be good if he was min bettting his strong hands and playing them well postflop. I mean if you have the BR to play .25-.50 just play full stack and save yourself having to effectively commit your stack on 3 bets and give yourself more room to exploit your villains.

sorry rereading it it seems you want more exact ranges, i would mostly play things with potential, like suited connectors and such, keeping IP wide and OP tight and keep the 3 bets pretty legit. I mean in these games calling semilight pre shouldnt be too much a problem because v's arent generally going to be deep enough to 3 bet or 4 bet light at all, so they can't punish the "sin" too much so exploit that

[mtdesmoines]

O.K. The past few sessions I have played at a .25/.50 20-50bb 6-max tables, there has been a few players that open min-raise, and call min-raise from OOP a bunch. I know from reading here and seeing videos on PokerVT from JC (PrtyPSux)(he really dogs them out in the videos) that this is terrible. Now, before I play stupid, I wanted to ask a few questions first. With a open-min-raise and a call min-raise, what can/do they have? J8/Q7/T9, medium hands, etc. possible A low x??? Also, if you are going to 3-bet them pre-flop, how much if you were trying to just win it pre-flop? $3-$4 about right? With what cards would you want to try that with? Ax, K10^, any PP? If it goes to flop, would you want to play conservative or hit it hard, c/r and re-eval after that, c/c etc.? I am sure table flow would dictate more, but lets pretend that there is always light action post flop. No one is going crazy shoving, big betting, etc. Mostly min-bets, 1/2 pots on all types of boards. I may not be explaining very well, but I guess you get the point of the question.
Thanks!!

I would probably open my range up in position vs. an open min-raise.

You really need to consider these things to make good decisions:
- stack sizes
- player tendencies
- position considerations
- table texture


VS a CHRONIC min-raising OOP opener:

Generally, with 100 BB+ stack sizes, I would 3bet hard (like mash the pot button) in position pretty liberally with a lot of hands (JTs 77 +?) until I got resistance/more aggressive responses or see that villain is doing this with better hands. (EDITED)

Generally, vs. shorties, I'd probably mash pot button with 99/AJs +, and fold a lot of other hands, but others may differ and stats matter vs. shorties

This is assuming they are min-raising a lot and it's not just that they have min-raised OOP twice in an hour.

[CorvairShaggy]

I play the shallow stacks as "Spewing Control" for me. Since I am still making bad plays, I can minimize my loss when I do make a stupid play. I have played them enough to figure out how much you can push before they shove. 3-betting pot pre 80% of the time turns into a shove, so that is what I was wondering was it worth trying to 3-bet with marginal hands, or just "play it limit style" 3-bet size and/or just flat and play it from there.

Generally if they start with $10 then they are more prone to shove pre than one that starts with $25. I always start with $25 and keep the auto-reload on.
Chronic would be 1 out of 3 hands they play is a open-min or min-raise, and taht is waht I was referring to in this post. I like to observe at least 10-12 hands first before trying to play, unless I get a really nice starter. Stack Sizes/Player tendencies are usually the $10 players shove alot, so if they are minnie-mousing it, I better have a stronger start/3-bet less because they are more likely to shove if I get too high???

Usually a 1-2 hour session shallow stacks can turn into a $30-$70 profit for me, or can be a $30-$70 loss, mostly depends on the cards. The hourly rate sucks over multiple sessions, but works well for me in learning fundamentals, marginal hand play etc., but you are playing the cards mostly. Big wins for me are AA/KK Pre against AX, and big losses are JJ vs AA/KK pre, or me making just stupid bluffs deep in the hand. I will play deeper stacks at times, but don't feel comfortable just yet until I can get a handle on my biggest play problems. But this does give me some food for thought. Just making sure my thought process was in the ballpark, instead of outer space like other posts.
Thanks!

[rrumsey]

Generally if they start with $10 then they are more prone to shove pre than one that starts with $25. I always start with $25 and keep the auto-reload on.
Chronic would be 1 out of 3 hands they play is a open-min or min-raise, and taht is waht I was referring to in this post. I like to observe at least 10-12 hands first before trying to play, unless I get a really nice starter. Stack Sizes/Player tendencies are usually the $10 players shove alot, so if they are minnie-mousing it, I better have a stronger start/3-bet less because they are more likely to shove if I get too high???

Usually a 1-2 hour session shallow stacks can turn into a $30-$70 profit for me, or can be a $30-$70 loss, mostly depends on the cards. The hourly rate sucks over multiple sessions, but works well for me in learning fundamentals, marginal hand play etc., but you are playing the cards mostly. Big wins for me are AA/KK Pre against AX, and big losses are JJ vs AA/KK pre, or me making just stupid bluffs deep in the hand. I will play deeper stacks at times, but don't feel comfortable just yet until I can get a handle on my biggest play problems. But this does give me some food for thought. Just making sure my thought process was in the ballpark, instead of outer space like other posts.
Thanks!

i would just play a lower limit then, even if you are properly rolled for 50nl and work the leaks out of your game and learn to manage your tilt down there, like 5 to 10 nl
extra note, from my experience tilting is just a result of not playing enough hands to know you are going to get sucked out, and sometimes you are going to suck out, so make it your mission to play as many hands as possible (i would say play like 4 tables) of a limit you can beat and have a ton of roll for and try and keep it where the money doesnt concern you but the plays are what you focus on and make your game more solid/ learn to manage expectations. i dont know your br situation but if you can afford bullets at $10 a pop you could play a ton of $5 and put your time in

i mean by playing the shallow games that short you are taking the skill out of it and riding a lot on luck, granted if you play the #'s and the math correctly you should in thoery be able to profit from it but sticking it in that early in the hand on a regular basis is variant as hell. i mean that may cause you to tilt more

[CorvairShaggy]

Tilting I am not worried about. I mean, I have got past that point of " ASDFGHJKL you ADFSKGH sucked out on me". Only time I get ticked is when I make the bad play and know I made the bad play, and I am mad at myself. As long as I get it in and I am ahead at the time, then I feel like I played it good. My problem is at the lower stakes like .5 .10 nl is I turn into a calling station and shove alot with marginal hands, because if I lose $3 in a marginal gamble, it doesn't bother me. If I play at something where the $$ means a bit more, then I play tighter/smarter. I see your point, but my thinking/approach is probably off. I can afford $100 a week reloads if need be, but try to reload little as possible for the principle. That is one problem that I am variant as hell right now. Up one day, down the next. Mixing it up with cash/s&g donkaments usually 30 min at lunch at work, and 4-5 hours every night. I will do 2 s&g donkaments or 1 cash 1 tourney at a time. My cash game needs alot of work, but I feel real comfortabale at 30 man and lower s&g. Trying to work on the bigger mtts . I will try 3-4 table .5/.10 nl one night and see how it goes. Maybe if I have more to concentrate on then I won't get antsy. Try to focus more on point rather than $$.
Thanks!

[cashman]

Tilting I am not worried about. I mean, I have got past that point of " ASDFGHJKL you ADFSKGH sucked out on me". Only time I get ticked is when I make the bad play and know I made the bad play, and I am mad at myself. As long as I get it in and I am ahead at the time, then I feel like I played it good. My problem is at the lower stakes like .5 .10 nl is I turn into a calling station and shove alot with marginal hands, because if I lose $3 in a marginal gamble, it doesn't bother me. If I play at something where the $$ means a bit more, then I play tighter/smarter. I see your point, but my thinking/approach is probably off. I can afford $100 a week reloads if need be, but try to reload little as possible for the principle. That is one problem that I am variant as hell right now. Up one day, down the next. Mixing it up with cash/s&g donkaments usually 30 min at lunch at work, and 4-5 hours every night. I will do 2 s&g donkaments or 1 cash 1 tourney at a time. My cash game needs alot of work, but I feel real comfortabale at 30 man and lower s&g. Trying to work on the bigger mtts . I will try 3-4 table .5/.10 nl one night and see how it goes. Maybe if I have more to concentrate on then I won't get antsy. Try to focus more on point rather than $$.
Thanks!

I definitely would play the .05/.10. The play is not that bad and while the stakes may be so low that you take chances you wouldn't take w/real money on the line, getting the hands in is what really helps. Just try to stay disciplined. I have played almost nothing other than low stakes mtts online for the past couple of years simply because I enjoy tournaments more than cash. I have read several books and articles to try and improve my game, but nothing can replace simply putting the time in at the tables. Even though there is a lot of bad play at lower levels, there is also a lot of good play that can translate to the higher stakes I play in live poker.

As for the min raises, I don't think I would try to put guys on tight ranges without reads on them. If you can see a couple of hands get shown down you can then start narrowing their ranges. To simply ask how to counter that play at all times is too simplistic.

[Ninja Ace]

Don't open min-raise, it's retarded.

Treat open min-raises like limps, and proceed with the hand as if you were limped to. The only adjustment is your "open" has to be a little larger.

[dscoot]

this is from tournaments so keep in mind:

frequent MR are trying to see the the flop cheaply while still being the aggressor.

therefore, when i raise them, i like to make it bigger than normal cuz that is not how they want to play. i like making it 8-10bb total from pos and 10bb from out of position. when you minraise them small like 6bb total, they are almost always getting the right price to call, and you are putting them in somewhat of their comfort zone.

if you have a hand you dont wanna commit 10bb to , but also dont wanna let the blinds get in for the minraise with ATC, you could do the re-minraise. this helps keep the pot 2handed, and when they dont pop you back it helps you eliminate big hands from their range.

mix in some calls of their minraise too, you cant pop em 10x everytime, and when you call, be prepared to float/steal slightly more often than you normally would as they likely are gonna c-bet the flop w/o hitting more often than you think

you might want them to give you action when you hold certain hands like AA,KK, ak-at , kq. so maybe the 6bb is best for these hands, cuz with AAKK you want them to catch their pair and bet, and with ak-at your gonna get paid nicely when youboth catch pairs but you have them outkicked.