25 replies to this topic

[SwolyswoND]

DUCY it's a shove? When action comes to you, the pot will be $80 + however much you raise. One player has $155 left and the other has $195 left. Assuming if they are going to continue, they will need a set or a naked high diamond (or have flopped a higher flush, but we're drawing dead to that so analysis there is irrelevant). Sets have 30% equity against you. A naked diamond has about the same, maybe a little less (7 remaining flush outs).That means that with 30% equity, they only need 2.3-to-1 odds to call you and do so correctly. To price them out odds-wise you have to raise pretty much what you did, but you can't raise that much and then fold ever. Like, what happens if you raise to $120 and UTG folds but Nemesis flats - and then a 4th diamond comes, or the board pairs, and he shoves? You can't fold for the price, but you're basically never winning. So since you're committed, you might as well charge them the max to draw. If they fold their draw since we charged too much, that's fine - our equity vs. their ranges isn't as fantastic as you might think. If you were deeper, then your raise size is basically perfect.

[shynepo3]

SwolyswoND, on Thursday, May 6th, 2010, 1:32 PM, said:

DUCY it's a shove? When action comes to you, the pot will be $80 + however much you raise. One player has $155 left and the other has $195 left. Assuming if they are going to continue, they will need a set or a naked high diamond (or have flopped a higher flush, but we're drawing dead to that so analysis there is irrelevant). Sets have 30% equity against you. A naked diamond has about the same, maybe a little less (7 remaining flush outs).That means that with 30% equity, they only need 2.3-to-1 odds to call you and do so correctly. To price them out odds-wise you have to raise pretty much what you did, but you can't raise that much and then fold ever. Like, what happens if you raise to $120 and UTG folds but Nemesis flats - and then a 4th diamond comes, or the board pairs, and he shoves? You can't fold for the price, but you're basically never winning. So since you're committed, you might as well charge them the max to draw. If they fold their draw since we charged too much, that's fine - our equity vs. their ranges isn't as fantastic as you might think. If you were deeper, then your raise size is basically perfect.

That makes perfect sense - I want to charge the max, since there isn't enough money behind. It makes me shiver to think I might've folded if he nemisis shoved on top off utg+1. Or if that 4th diamond came on the turn instead of the river and I decided to save my $40 when he shoves....uggggh.

[Provotrout]

This is why in my early days I started to raise really strong with TPTK against drawing boards. Gotta make the draws pay a hefty premium to keep going. If you're beat, then so be it.Of course, after meeting a lot of two pair/set type hands I moderated that approach by relying on reads + moderate raises to distinguish between sets and draw bluffs. Being in position helps of course, but the overall point remains: it's good poker to apply serious pressure to draws. If applied correctly, you win even when you lose (unless you're over-flushed of course).

[shynepo3]

Provotrout, on Thursday, May 6th, 2010, 10:02 PM, said:

This is why in my early days I started to raise really strong with TPTK against drawing boards. Gotta make the draws pay a hefty premium to keep going. If you're beat, then so be it.Of course, after meeting a lot of two pair/set type hands I moderated that approach by relying on reads + moderate raises to distinguish between sets and draw bluffs. Being in position helps of course, but the overall point remains: it's good poker to apply serious pressure to draws. If applied correctly, you win even when you lose (unless you're over-flushed of course).

yeah, i definely see what you're saying, and i do practice that (pricing out drws - but i usually do it when i have a bit more than tptk, if it's not heads up)...i was just a bit confused with swol's logic as to shove instead of raise, but he clarified it...which makes sense..lately, i notice that i've been getting too greedy with my made hands against draws with more than 3-4 players in the hand. like this hand i played the other day, i didnt raise on the flop...i'm going to make a thread on it, and i'm pretty sure everyone is going to say i should have raised...provotrout, you still playiing 1/2 live or did u make the jump to 2/5...or online?

[Provotrout]

shynepo3, on Friday, May 7th, 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

provotrout, you still playiing 1/2 live or did u make the jump to 2/5...or online?

Still taking time off from live play, playing low stakes online and relaxing. Will get into live mode sometime in the next couple weeks, but most local games are 1/3 so that'll probably be the format.

[trussdude]

If I ever play 9-3 otb and get a dream flop like that, and with the action descibed, I put all the money I have in the pot.What kind of flop are you hoping to have with that hand?