24 replies to this topic

[SmokeyMcDave]

Hi,

This is my first post so I will give a short introduction. I've been playing a variety of different games, trying to figure out what I'm best at, for about 6 months now. I started with $100 and I've been breaking even / slightly losing, so I figured I would start posting some hands and see if I can plug some leaks.

Lately, I've been playing 2 tables of 5NL Rush poker (Leak #1 I guess). I've had some decent success, 2 +$30 sessions last week followed up by a -$30 session a couple of days ago. This is one hand about halfway through the losing session (I was still steaming a bit from a set over set hand)

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($3.32)
VillainB (SB) ($10.95)
BB ($8.08)
Hero (UTG) ($7.29)
VillanA (MP) ($2.99)
CO ($2.33)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, 10
Hero bets $0.15, VillanA raises $0.52, 2 folds, VillainB calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.37

Maybe I should be 4 betting here? My logic was that most hands I'm beating will fold to a 4 bet, aside from AK and maybe AQs.


Flop: ($1.61) 4, 3, 4 (3 players)
VillainB bets $0.32, Hero calls $0.32, VillanA raises $2.47 (All-In), VillainB calls $2.15, Hero ?

I was already a little bit afraid of VillainB having a bigger pair, so I decided to just flat the bet (Leak#2?). When VillainA shoved my initial thinking was call, but VillainB beat me to it with a snap call.

So I wasn't sure what to do at this point, I think it's either shove or fold? What do you think villains ranges are here?

[rrumsey]

fold pre, the cold call is pretty strong, we are behind both of their ranges imo preflop, and fold flop. even if he has 2 overs and a flush we are flipping, and that is totally best cause scenario.

[jmbreslin]

I don't think the call PF is terrible, his implied odds are juicy with 2 deep villains in the hand. However, your reason for calling preflop is purely to play set-it-or-forget-it. You can safely assume at least one of them is on a big pair so when you miss your set it's time to get out of dodge.

[rrumsey]

I don't think the call PF is terrible, his implied odds are juicy with 2 deep villains in the hand. However, your reason for calling preflop is purely to play set-it-or-forget-it. You can safely assume at least one of them is on a big pair so when you miss your set it's time to get out of dodge.

that is so spewy, we need to be very very deep for that to be profitable. just fold pre. set mining tends to be bad almost all the time.

[jmbreslin]

that is so spewy, we need to be very very deep for that to be profitable. just fold pre. set mining tends to be bad almost all the time.

Huh? I did misjudge Villain A's stack but effective stacks between Hero and Villain B are almost 150BB. Set-mining is hardly bad here. So as a general rule you just don't set-mine unless you're, say, >200BB deep?

[SwolyswoND]

Huh? I did misjudge Villain A's stack but effective stacks between Hero and Villain B are almost 150BB. Set-mining is hardly bad here. So as a general rule you just don't set-mine unless you're, say, >200BB deep?

No, man, it's fine. Rumsey is off here. Set-mining is not a bad thing, as long as you have the IO. We don't have it against Villain A (calling .37 more and he has 2.47 behind) but we definitely do against Villain B, where the effective stacks behind are about 6.79. That's freaking like 18-to-1 implied, and is more than enough to set mine with any PP, let alone TT.

[mtdesmoines]

Iunno. This is one of those "we beat one villain who puts 10BBs in pre, but not two," situations.

[SwolyswoND]

You're right that that's probably the situation PF. But that's why we're set mining.

[mtdesmoines]

You're right that that's probably the situation PF. But that's why we're set mining.

Only villainB is deep enough to set mine vs. tho, and he flats the PF 3bet. Means he's set-mining as well? If yes, tremendous lowers our odds to stack him.

[rrumsey]

No, man, it's fine. Rumsey is off here. Set-mining is not a bad thing, as long as you have the IO. We don't have it against Villain A (calling .37 more and he has 2.47 behind) but we definitely do against Villain B, where the effective stacks behind are about 6.79. That's freaking like 18-to-1 implied, and is more than enough to set mine with any PP, let alone TT.

personally i would like v to be deeper, to compensate for the times we can't stack him when we hit a set. 60 BB is shallow to set mine. would love him to be around 100ish BB. we dont get him every time even when we do hit, i want a big reward when we do. maybe it is a leak in my game, but i tend to avoid these spots a bit.

im not disagreeing with your math man, in theory you are correct, i just dont love it. thats all.

[SwolyswoND]

The absolute # of BB he has is irrelevant, rumsey. It's how much he has in relation to how much we have to call. Even besides that, our effective stacks with Villain B is like 160 BBs.

I know we don't stack him every time, but that's why we need like 12-to-1 implied, even though the odds of hitting the set are 8.5-to-1.

And mtdesmoines I understand your point, but I feel it's offset by the even greater IO here. That makes up for the lesser chance of stacking villain B.

[mtdesmoines]

The absolute # of BB he has is irrelevant, rumsey. It's how much he has in relation to how much we have to call. Even besides that, our effective stacks with Villain B is like 160 BBs.

I know we don't stack him every time, but that's why we need like 12-to-1 implied, even though the odds of hitting the set are 8.5-to-1.

And mtdesmoines I understand your point, but I feel it's offset by the even greater IO here. That makes up for the lesser chance of stacking villain B.

Ya I don't think it's bad bad bad, I just think it's a pretty neutral proposition to get in between them with TT and I think we have little to no business being involved post flop.

[SmokeyMcDave]

Ya I don't think it's bad bad bad, I just think it's a pretty neutral proposition to get in between them with TT and I think we have little to no business being involved post flop.

Ok, so the call pre was alright, although at the time I was not calling for the sake of set mining. To be honest I'm not really sure what I was thinking at the time, I'm pretty sure I was tilting and just wanted to win a pot. On the flop I came to my senses and gave up on thinking my 10s were best.

Here is the rest of the hand... Villan Bs pre flop call is absolutely sick...but I guess it worked out for him, I'll just have to be happy with the fact that I made the correct fold on the flop and that in the long run he will lose money making plays like that.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($3.32)
VillainB (SB) ($10.95)
BB ($8.08)
Hero (UTG) ($7.29)
VillainA (MP) ($2.99)
CO ($2.33)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, 10
Hero bets $0.15, VillainA raises $0.52, 2 folds, VillainB calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.37

Flop: ($1.61) 4, 3, 4 (3 players)
VillainB bets $0.32, Hero calls $0.32, VillainA raises $2.47 (All-In), VillainB calls $2.15, Hero folds

Turn: ($6.87) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($6.87) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $6.87

Results:
VillainB had 3, 7 (full house, fours over threes).
VillainA had J, A (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: VillainB won $6.42

[SwolyswoND]

Um, why did you call the first flop bet if you were going to fold to A's shove?

[SmokeyMcDave]

Um, why did you call the first flop bet if you were going to fold to A's shove?

Obviously I didn't know A was going to shove, I was planning on calling As shove when he did it but when B called I figured one of them had to have a higher pair... Also I said in the original post that I thought the call was probably a leak, I just have a hard time folding to a .32 cent bet in a pot of 1.60 with an over pair.

[SwolyswoND]

Your logic makes no sense. If you thought Villain B had a higher pair, you should be folding to the donk bet. If you thought A might shove (which you should) and didn't plan to call, you should fold to B's bet. If you call B's bet, you HAVE to call the shove. Either you were set mining or you weren't - if you were, then you missed your set so fold. If you weren't, then this is about as safe a flop as you can get, so get it in.

[jmbreslin]

Ok, so the call pre was alright, although at the time I was not calling for the sake of set mining. To be honest I'm not really sure what I was thinking at the time, I'm pretty sure I was tilting and just wanted to win a pot. On the flop I came to my senses and gave up on thinking my 10s were best.

From this mistake, everything else follows. You have to be crystal clear why you're playing a hand right from the beginning so you can have a rough plan for how you're going to proceed. And then you have to stick with that plan. You're going to spew money big time if you get involved with the mindset of, "I'll see a flop and go from there."

[SmokeyMcDave]

Your logic makes no sense. If you thought Villain B had a higher pair, you should be folding to the donk bet. If you thought A might shove (which you should) and didn't plan to call, you should fold to B's bet. If you call B's bet, you HAVE to call the shove. Either you were set mining or you weren't - if you were, then you missed your set so fold. If you weren't, then this is about as safe a flop as you can get, so get it in.

I think your logic makes less sense than mine. I've seen a lot of players 3 bet fairly light so Villain As range is fairly wide pre flop, Villain Bs cold call shows a little more strength so I'd say for a normal villain it's big pairs or a big ace. I think his donk bet doesn't narrow his range at all given that people hate giving up 3 bet pots, so I called. I think Villan Bs shove doesn't really narrow his range much either, and I've said twice now that I intended on calling it if Villain B folds. I'm not folding because of Villain As shove I'm folding because I know if I continue with the hand I have to put in the rest of my stack.

I can understand someone donk betting with a big ace but I don't think he's calling Villain As all in with that hand and I think his call now narrows his range to a big pair. So what you're saying is because I called a .32 cent bet that I absolutely have to put in another 6.50 even though Villain B has shown more strength with the call than he did with the donk bet?

I'll admit that these things may not have been what I was thinking at the time and I'm willing to admit that I played the hand poorly, but I disagree that calling the .32 cents and folding when I'm looking at a decision for my stack is bad especially when Villain B has now shown more strength.

[SwolyswoND]

You're making this too complicated. Either you were set mining or you were calling PF for TT's value.

If you were set mining, then you missed your set and you need to fold. Even to Villain B's donkbet. If you were not set mining, then this is one of the safest flops you could have hoped for, and you need to get it in.

So you're saying you called Villain B's donkbet, and would have called Villain A's shove, except that Villain B called too? Think about it. You're saying now that Villain B MUST have a better hand than you - so in other words, you were set mining. Which means you should have folded to the first flop bet. If you called B's first bet, it must be because you think TT is still ahead of his range. That hasn't changed the 2nd time around, and you should be calling in that scenario.

[giffenbone]

Ok, so the call pre was alright, although at the time I was not calling for the sake of set mining. To be honest I'm not really sure what I was thinking at the time, I'm pretty sure I was tilting and just wanted to win a pot. On the flop I came to my senses and gave up on thinking my 10s were best.

Here is the rest of the hand... Villan Bs pre flop call is absolutely sick...but I guess it worked out for him, I'll just have to be happy with the fact that I made the correct fold on the flop and that in the long run he will lose money making plays like that.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($3.32)
VillainB (SB) ($10.95)
BB ($8.08)
Hero (UTG) ($7.29)
VillainA (MP) ($2.99)
CO ($2.33)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, 10
Hero bets $0.15, VillainA raises $0.52, 2 folds, VillainB calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.37

Flop: ($1.61) 4, 3, 4 (3 players)
VillainB bets $0.32, Hero calls $0.32, VillainA raises $2.47 (All-In), VillainB calls $2.15, Hero folds

Turn: ($6.87) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($6.87) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $6.87

Results:
VillainB had 3, 7 (full house, fours over threes).
VillainA had J, A (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: VillainB won $6.42

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't even make the correct fold on the flop. You were ahead the whole hand.