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#41 SlapStick

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 03:07 PM

I could definitely be talked into how the first attack was OK but in what war is firing on people trying to help the wounded allowed? They should have never been given permission to fire on the van, you don't shoot the medic.There was never any talk of RPGs or weapons when the van pulled up.
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#42 loogie

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 05:16 PM

View PostSlapStick, on Tuesday, April 6th, 2010, 7:07 PM, said:

There was never any talk of RPGs or weapons when the van pulled up.
Not entirely true. They were assuming that the van was there to recover the wounded and the weapons, and they said that on the tape.I think most people are shocked at how the pilots seemed to savor the kills, but isn't that attitude the kind you need to foster when turning men into killing machines?

#43 Oggmonster

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 05:57 PM

http://blog.ajmartin...lateral-murder/

#44 Don Giovanni

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 06:43 PM

watch the interview on cnn.com with a retired general. he points out this is in 2007 at the worst part of the whole war, in the middle of an established engagement in the area. They had reports of gangs of insurgents walking around with weapons and thats clearly what they saw.not one of you would think this was anything besides a gang of insurgents if you hadnt been told two of them were reporters ahead of time. end of story. they could clearly be seen with aks and rpgs.to me, it discredits wikileaks or whatever to lace the video with propaganda, and provide no context.also, if you are a photographer, in the middle of a warzone, in the middle of a battle, dont walk around with an armed gang. does this really need to be pointed out? they had no press identification at all... they were playing with fire.the fact that we're not just opening up on random groups, that we're flying around in circles observing and getting confirmation from the ground, is a GOOD thing. this is not an example of carelessness.the interview on cnn covers the van too. vans being used to evacuate weapons and wounded insurgents was an established thing apparently. that was clearly not an ambulance. now, lets talk about the people in iraq, al queda or otherwise, who actually purposefully target and behead journalists (and diplomats, and repairmen, and other such infidels). lets save our condemnation for those who deserve it.

#45 vbnautilus

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:39 PM

View PostDon Giovanni, on Tuesday, April 6th, 2010, 7:43 PM, said:

watch the interview on cnn.com with a retired general. he points out this is in 2007 at the worst part of the whole war, in the middle of an established engagement in the area. They had reports of gangs of insurgents walking around with weapons and thats clearly what they saw.not one of you would think this was anything besides a gang of insurgents if you hadnt been told two of them were reporters ahead of time. end of story.
fwiw, I watched the video before I knew that they were supposed to be reporters. I saw a bunch of people milling about, a couple possibly? had guns. I did not think they were a threat to the helicopter, but as others said I also know that I don't know the context in which everything is happening. I found the whole process of getting approval to engage to be very cursory given that there were human lives at stake, and this was assuming that they were just random iraqis.

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they could clearly be seen with aks and rpgs.
I mean, it's not "clearly" that. The whole thing is a soup of uncertainty.

#46 strategy

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 05:30 PM

beating a dead horse, etc.http://i.imgur.com/twrSH.jpgsomeone put this together to show how ridiculously dumb wikileaks was to spin the video the way they did. I repeat: this should have been about the coverup, not the media guys hanging out with insurgents who probably deserved what they had coming.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#47 JoeyJoJo

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:17 AM

View Poststrategy, on Thursday, April 8th, 2010, 6:30 PM, said:

someone put this together to show how ridiculously dumb wikileaks was to spin the video the way they did. I repeat: this should have been about the coverup, not the media guys hanging out with insurgents who probably deserved what they had coming.
I think it's dumb for wikileaks to spin anything. As soon as they start trying to express an opinion they become more easily dismissed. They should be all about making information available and that's it.
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#48 Balloon guy

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:39 AM

View PostJoeyJoJo, on Friday, April 9th, 2010, 8:17 AM, said:

I think it's dumb for wikileaks to spin anything. As soon as they start trying to express an opinion they become more easily dismissed. They should be all about making information available and that's it.
Should be, but their inability to show us who killed Kennedy has caused them to reach for goals that are not attainable.It's very Freudian and I think Freud was a charlatanI guess the real interesting thing to study over their carcass is what caused their ultimate inability to not be crazy?I mean is it an inherent flaw of all things internet to be on the fringe of crazy?Or is it a constant theme with people 'revealing the truth about government' that they slowly fall into a pit of paranoia?Could we make the case that as things like this slowly 'come into their own' that their own inner demons of self-doubt and self- loathing feed into the very thing they are doing, making self destruction a natural reaction to their 'once lofty goals'?Are they caught in the 'need for bigger and better' things to continue to justify their existence?Was this their original intent? To start off with real stuff, then slowly force an agenda? They just hid it better than most, but couldn't hide it for ever.At the end of the day this is why I watch Fox News...They report YOU decide...
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#49 JoeyJoJo

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:43 AM

That was a lot of set up for the punch line.
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#50 Naked_Cowboy

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 08:06 AM

i think the number of people on earth who have this kind of passion for something even tangentially political who have no agenda is extrordinarily close to zero.
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#51 JoeyJoJo

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 08:20 AM

View PostNaked_Cowboy, on Friday, April 9th, 2010, 9:06 AM, said:

i think the number of people on earth who have this kind of passion for something even tangentially political who have no agenda is extrordinarily close to zero.
Probably. But if we're going to ask our politicians to do the right thing regardless of politics, we should ask the same of the political watchdogs.
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#52 Jeepster80125

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 08:21 AM

View Poststrategy, on Thursday, April 8th, 2010, 7:30 PM, said:

beating a dead horse, etc.http://i.imgur.com/twrSH.jpgsomeone put this together to show how ridiculously dumb wikileaks was to spin the video the way they did. I repeat: this should have been about the coverup, not the media guys hanging out with insurgents who probably deserved what they had coming.
That seems pretty damning.I don't understand the last two photos though. Is the color photo from the point of view of the cameraguy looking around the corner, or is it showing how close the cameraguys were to the fighting?
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QUOTE (Spademan @ Friday, May 22nd, 2009, 4:24 PM)
We are both being judgmental, the only difference is my judgments are well reasoned, well presented and actually have something to do with reality whereas yours are inane assumption wrapped in a steaming pile of contradiction.

#53 Balloon guy

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 08:29 AM

View PostJoeyJoJo, on Friday, April 9th, 2010, 8:43 AM, said:

That was a lot of set up for the punch line.
I'm all about the set up
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#54 Naked_Cowboy

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 08:34 AM

View PostJeepster80125, on Friday, April 9th, 2010, 11:21 AM, said:

That seems pretty damning.I don't understand the last two photos though. Is the color photo from the point of view of the cameraguy looking around the corner, or is it showing how close the cameraguys were to the fighting?
I think it's both. The camera guys were extremely close to the fighting / militants without the proper garb / credentials. Think about that picture from the reverse angle. You're in the APC and you see a guy peek half his body around a building a block away and point something large and black at you in the middle of an active warzone.Is your first though "oh, hello friendly photographer" or "dear mr. helicopter, please kill the bad guy taking cover and pointing something large and dark at me, i dont' want to get shot at anymore today"?
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#55 Jeepster80125

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 08:42 AM

View PostNaked_Cowboy, on Friday, April 9th, 2010, 10:34 AM, said:

I think it's both. The camera guys were extremely close to the fighting / militants without the proper garb / credentials. Think about that picture from the reverse angle. You're in the APC and you see a guy peek half his body around a building a block away and point something large and black at you in the middle of an active warzone.Is your first though "oh, hello friendly photographer" or "dear mr. helicopter, please kill the bad guy taking cover and pointing something large and dark at me, i dont' want to get shot at anymore today"?
I agree with you and strat, that the issue should be the military cover-up, not spinning this video. I am completely okay with considering this video as evidence of poor luck and the fog of war. The victims did nothing to help their situation.If I am getting shot at, I'll ask for forgiveness later, instead of permission first. I can understand the argument that you should be 100% before taking human life, but this isn't a vacuum, it's war.
Posted Image
QUOTE (Spademan @ Friday, May 22nd, 2009, 4:24 PM)
We are both being judgmental, the only difference is my judgments are well reasoned, well presented and actually have something to do with reality whereas yours are inane assumption wrapped in a steaming pile of contradiction.

#56 strategy

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 04:14 PM

I didn't get the last two pictures either.It seems clear to me that wikileaks went with the political spin to get recognition and funding. Without those two, you're not going to make much of a difference no matter how powerful your information is. There are examples of this, and I could look up a few more if pressed, but here's one: http://cryptome.org/
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#57 Kenny Banya

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 09:26 PM

Yeah! What were those stupid Iraqi's doing trying to walk about THEIR country, in THEIR streets. Pffff, thinking they have the freedom to film and document what is going on...the nerve they have.Who cares if people were murdered in cold blood. Their skin is brown, and thus they have no rights.And why does Ballon guy still post here. I am embarrassed you three year ago about the economy.

#58 Balloon guy

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 11:19 PM

View PostKenny Banya, on Friday, April 9th, 2010, 10:26 PM, said:

Yeah! What were those stupid Iraqi's doing trying to walk about THEIR country, in THEIR streets. Pffff, thinking they have the freedom to film and document what is going on...the nerve they have.Who cares if people were murdered in cold blood. Their skin is brown, and thus they have no rights.And why does Ballon guy still post here. I am embarrassed you three year ago about the economy.
Probably for the spelling lessons?
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#59 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 05:44 AM

View PostKenny Banya, on Saturday, April 10th, 2010, 12:26 AM, said:

Yeah! What were those stupid Iraqi's doing trying to walk about THEIR country, in THEIR streets.
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#60 Kenny Banya

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 12:34 PM

View PostBalloon guy, on Saturday, April 10th, 2010, 12:19 AM, said:

Probably for the spelling lessons?
That all you have? A few spelling errors after I typed something up quick?If you're as good with words as you are on the economy...god help you.




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