66 replies to this topic

[nutzbuster]

Below is a clip of a journalist volunteering to undergo the procedure. It is not violent or gross in any way.


But is it torture? Was this guy physically hurt? maimed? Beaten? Bloodied?

Obviously this is psychologically taxing.....but is this "torture"?


http://content1.clipmarks.com/content/7E8A...4-3A07CF501B7C/

[Ninjafoo]

I think of it as humane torture

[CaneBrain]

yes.

[offset]

One guy they did it to can't control his bladder when he gets nervous now because of it. Besides the fact of the matter is torture doesn't work. You or I would say anything to stop the pain of physchological pain stop. It just doesn't work. Interrogation isn't perfect but it works better.

[Balloon guy]

One guy they did it to can't control his bladder when he gets nervous now because of it. Besides the fact of the matter is torture doesn't work. You or I would say anything to stop the pain of physchological pain stop. It just doesn't work. Interrogation isn't perfect but it works better.

Of course it works.

That's just Hollywood silliness saying that torture doesn't work.

It has always worked when done right.

The military had to change their 'rules' about soldiers being tortured in Vietnam because it always worked. They went from it being an act of treason to give in to torture, to just hold out as long as you can. ( Because it worked )

And the 3 guys who got waterboarded by the US in the last 8 years? Worked on them too

[LongLiveYorke]

Yes torture, but not as bad as watching an average Geico commercial.

[JoeyJoJo]

is it torture?

Does Charlie Daniels play a mean fiddle?

There you go.

[LongLiveYorke]

There you go.

[hblask]

Every person who has had it done to them agrees it is torture.

And no, torture doesn't work, unless the goal is to get people to say things that make you stop torturing them regardless of the truth of what they are saying.

[CaneBrain]

Every person who has had it done to them agrees it is torture.

And no, torture doesn't work, unless the goal is to get people to say things that make you stop torturing them regardless of the truth of what they are saying.

The US government agrees it is torture because they convicted a number of Japanese soldiers of war crimes for water-boarding American troops during World War 2.

[Balloon guy]

Every person who has had it done to them agrees it is torture.

And no, torture doesn't work, unless the goal is to get people to say things that make you stop torturing them regardless of the truth of what they are saying.

Worked on Abu Zubaydah

[hblask]

Worked on Abu Zubaydah

Maybe. If you believe everything your government tells you, I guess. And if you believe that he gave information that would not have been acquired by other means.

And you don't believe in fundamental human rights.

So maybe.

[Balloon guy]

Maybe. If you believe everything your government tells you, I guess. And if you believe that he gave information that would not have been acquired by other means.

And you don't believe in fundamental human rights.

So maybe.

I thought you knew I was a republican...

[JoeyJoJo]

Of course, the belief in fundamental human rights has no bearing on the effectiveness of torture.

[LongLiveYorke]

Of course, the belief in fundamental human rights has no bearing on the effectiveness of torture.

Well, it depends on the end toward which you want to be effective.

[Balloon guy]

Well all I know is:

Zubayduh knew something and wasn't talking

They waterboarded him

Then he talked

and talked


and talked


and we got intel that saved lives.

So you may not want them on that wall, but you NEED them on that wall

[hblask]

Well all I know is:

Zubayduh knew something and wasn't talking

They waterboarded him

Then he talked

and talked


and talked


and we got intel that saved lives.

So you may not want them on that wall, but you NEED them on that wall

This reminds of that story I heard about this one guy who had some really hard luck, but then the welfare system picked him up and he went on to turn around his life.

Of course, the pre-Clinton welfare state was, on average, a disaster, trapping multiple generations in poverty and harming way more people than it helped.

Even if you can find a case where torturing somebody possibly helped, you must admit that, over the longer picture of human history, giving governments the right to ignore the fundamental value of a human being has cost way, way more lives than could ever be saved through the use of torture. I believe the current total of deaths due to governments ignoring fundamental human rights is well over 250,000,000. How many lives has torture saved?

[Jeepster80125]

This reminds of that story I heard about this one guy who had some really hard luck, but then the welfare system picked him up and he went on to turn around his life.

Of course, the pre-Clinton welfare state was, on average, a disaster, trapping multiple generations in poverty and harming way more people than it helped.

Even if you can find a case where torturing somebody possibly helped, you must admit that, over the longer picture of human history, giving governments the right to ignore the fundamental value of a human being has cost way, way more lives than could ever be saved through the use of torture. I believe the current total of deaths due to governments ignoring fundamental human rights is well over 250,000,000. How many lives has torture saved?

You better hope he doesn't use the model that obama is using to calculate saved jobs.

[GeddyL.]

Like many folks that have been through advanced special forces training, I have been water boarded... and YES it's torture. Much of it however is technically psychological, as the technique causes a sensation whereby your brain/body feels as is you're drowning. It was a horrible experience to say the least. Like a lot of people, I have a tendency to black out from the experience... but results and experiences differ.

Does it work?? Certainly the victim is scared sh!tless, and believes they are suffocating. But most studies show that torture just forces the "victim" (i use that term loosely) to tell the one doing the torturing what they want to hear... 'cause that's what stops the torture. So you get sooo many false positives. You'd be surprised what people will admit to under duress

[strategy]

Even if you can find a case where torturing somebody possibly helped, you must admit that, over the longer picture of human history, giving governments the right to ignore the fundamental value of a human being has cost way, way more lives than could ever be saved through the use of torture. I believe the current total of deaths due to governments ignoring fundamental human rights is well over 250,000,000. How many lives has torture saved?

[waiting patiently for BG to turn this into a christian vs. atheist government argument]