32 replies to this topic

[Wily]

Late in $10 limit HE sit and go on Stars (where the blinds go up insanely fast)- I folded AA on the turn. Used up all 60 seconds of time before I did, thinking it through. What do you guys think?PokerStars Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind t300 (4 handed) converterButton (t2125)Hero (t2940)BB (t5085)UTG (t3350)Preflop: Hero is SB with [Ah], [Ac]. UTG raises, UTG calls.Flop: (7 SB, t2100) [Qs], [Qd], [5s] (2 players)Hero bets, UTG calls.Turn: (4.50 BB, t2700) [5h] (2 players)Hero bets, Hero folds.Final Pot: 7.5 BB (t4500)I thought it about, and finally decided he had to have KQ/QJ, or possibly A5. He would not have called my flop bet with AK, I'm feeling, given that he'd just have 2000 on the turn. If I called, I'd have just 700 on the river, and be basically all in. Also, this is right on the bubble - 4 remain, 3 get paid . If I fold, I'm way short, but Button has been passive all tourn long and I might be able to steal blinds from her. I asked him to show when I folded after thinking a long time. Results (removed for now).This one was a real tough for me, and I'm curious how you guys would play it. Thanks.-Yang

[cursive34]

i think you can rule out a 5 if he 3-bet pre flop i think he woulda raised if he had a queen on the flopi woulda check/called it down

[krup24]

I think you screwed up on the turn. He could have simply been playing AK and figured 2 pair w/ A kicker was good. If your so worried about it check / call the turn and river. I just don't see how his raise automatically put him on a boat when he just called the flop. He had every right to raise w/ KK but you had him dominated. With four left your looking for that one hand to set you on your way to the money and I believe you blew this hand.

[cdddc75]

Fold and leave myself 1140?No way. I go down swinging here. Three bet the turn (putting in the last of your chips).The pot is just too big compared to my stack to fold.Please remove the results for now.

[Petoria]

cursive34 said:

i think you can rule out a 5 if he 3-bet pre flop i think he woulda raised if he had a queen on the flopi woulda check/called it down

Why can he not be slow-playing especially in a heads up scenario.Good fold, i probably couldnt lay it down, even though it is the correct play. This is a typical play for a monster hand as i'm sure you already know.

[custom36]

cursive34 said:

i think he woulda raised if he had a queen on the flop

I doubt it. He was looking at getting an extra big bet out of his opponent rather than an extra small bet if he had the Q heads-up. I probably would've folded the turn as well minus some kind of read.

[rollito]

cdddc75 said:

Fold and leave myself 1140?No way. I go down swinging here. Three bet the turn and push the rest of my chips in on the river (or calling a turn cap).The pot is just too big compared to my stack to fold.Please remove the results for now.

agreed....if you win this pot your in good shap to win....folding puts you in desperation mode.....i think that you have to, as they say, "play to win," and its just a hand you ahve to go broke on it he has a Q.......pretty reasonable to rule out a 5

[cdddc75]

Anyone who advocates a bet/fold on the turn is crazy. Our hero is left with less than two big bets following that line. The only other sane option is check/folding, and I'm not going to do that after being called on the flop. Even with a check/fold on the turn, our hero is the short stack with less than three big bets left.I bet/raise that turn before I even have a chance to blink.

[Wily]

By the way, up to then I had only three-bet three or four times - with JJ, KK twice, and AK - pretty standard. Every time the hand was shown down, and I won all 4 I think. I was almost positive he read me for a big pocket pair, and was waiting for the turn to extract more value/get me pot committed.

[cdddc75]

Wily said:

By the way, up to then I had only three-bet three or four times - with JJ, KK twice, and AK - pretty standard. Every time the hand was shown down, and I won all 4 I think. I was almost positive he read me for a big pocket pair, and was waiting for the turn to extract more value/get me pot committed.

I understand that. You were just at a point where you in a limit pushfest. You shouldn't slow down to that flop, and unless you're psychic, you're continuing the lead on the turn. Once you fire that first turn bullet, you're pot committed. If you're going to play AA tighter than that on the bubble, it might be better to just fold preflop. He could be raising the turn with any ace at that point with two pair on the board. There are just too many hands that you beat to justify folding in fear of one of the four cards that beat you.

[DB10-2]

Wily said:

Late in $10 limit HE sit and go on Stars (where the blinds go up insanely fast)- I folded AA on the turn.  Used up all 60 seconds of time before I did, thinking it through.  What do you guys think?PokerStars Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind t300 (4 handed) converterButton (t2125)Hero (t2940)BB (t5085)UTG (t3350)Preflop: Hero is SB with [Ah], [Ac].    UTG raises, UTG calls.Flop: (7 SB, t2100) [Qs], [Qd], [5s] (2 players)Hero bets, UTG calls.Turn: (4.50 BB, t2700) [5h] (2 players)Hero bets, Hero folds.Final Pot: 7.5 BB (t4500)I thought it about, and finally decided he had to have KQ/QJ, or possibly A5.  He would not have called my flop bet with AK, I'm feeling, given that he'd just have 2000 on the turn.  If I called, I'd have just 700 on the river, and be basically all in.  Also, this is right on the bubble - 4 remain, 3 get paid .  If I fold, I'm way short, but Button has been passive all tourn long and I might be able to steal blinds from her.  I asked him to show when I folded after thinking a long time.  Results (removed for now).This one was a real tough for me, and I'm curious how you guys would play it. Thanks.-Yang

maybe the other player took a shot in the dark with A5s and it worked for him?

[gadzooks64]

I put him on a big pair: KK, QQ, or JJ or maybe AQ. He's slow playing you if he's got the Qs or AQ and the rest is just a semi-bluff that you fell for.

[BeanGW]

Call the turn raise, call the river. You're not leaving yourself in great position by folding this turn. If he's got a Q it sux, but if he's got K's, J's, AK, or 10's you win. He could even have Ace-rag here, and figures he's gonna split the pot with you when the second pair hits the board. You've already got half your stack invested here, so, even if there's fair certainty that I'm beat, I'm still firing away.I understand the bubble play, but the only way I'm folding Aces here is with 4 to a straight or flush on the board by the turn. Two pairs on the board just mean that the villain has fewer options for beating me. In addition to the fact that it's probably at least 50/50 that you're ahead here, Even if he does have a Q, you could always spike an Ace on the river to win it... I'm firing those rockets.They say the great players are those who can make the big laydowns. They're wrong. As Sklansky says an incorrect call will cost you an extra bet or two, but an incorrect fold will cost you the pot. I know an incorrect call here could have cost you the tourney, but if you are playing to win, you gotta push.

[Wily]

I was thinking of it from my Opp's perspective, since I believe he was a smart player and has been observant all along. I three-bet preflop, which is his biggest piece of information. What would I three-bet with late in a tournament? AK, AQ, KQs (?), AA to 10 10. Why would he raise the turn with just ace high when he knows that all except one of the hands I would three-bet with in this situation (AK) he's behind? I think he would've just smooth called with ace high and hoped for a safe river for a split. As for other possibilities, I was thinking of two - he actually had a Q or a 5, or he was making a very daring bluff late in the tournament (remember that he only has 1400 left after his raise). He was a straightforward player all along, so I ruled out a bluff (board was rainbow, also). I should've thought of a third case, that he may have had a pocket pair above 5 and was hoping I had just ace high. I don't know, I was very close to three-betting and pushing on the river. I'm still not sure if my fold was even possible at this stage, which some people have correctly pointed out (I only had about 1300 if I folded). I went with my gut here, that something was rotten in Denmark, and folded. One line I may have taken was checking the turn, although I'd only have 700 left then if he bet turn and river.

[cdddc75]

Wily said:

I was thinking of it from my Opp's perspective, since I believe he was a smart player and has been observant all along.  I three-bet preflop, which is his biggest piece of information.   What would I three-bet with late in a tournament? AK, AQ, KQs (?), AA to 10 10.  Why would he raise the turn with just ace high when he knows that all except one of the hands I would three-bet with in this situation (AK) he's behind?  I think he would've just smooth called with ace high and hoped for a safe river for a split.  As for other possibilities, I was thinking of two - he actually had a Q or a 5, or he was making a very daring bluff late in the tournament (remember that he only has 1400 left after his raise). He was a straightforward player all along, so I ruled out a bluff (board was rainbow, also).  I should've thought of a third case, that he may have had a pocket pair above 5 and was hoping I had just ace high.  I don't know, I was very close to three-betting and pushing on the river.  I'm still not sure if my fold was even possible at this stage, which some people have correctly pointed out (I only had about 1300 if I folded).  I went with my gut here, that something was rotten in Denmark, and folded.  One line I may have taken was checking the turn, although I'd only have 700 left then if he bet turn and river.

Glad you're seeing the range of hands now. There were just way too many hands you beat here to justify folding, especially considering your short stack that you left yourself.

[JayPaav]

lets keep it real.it was a $10 tourney at an online poker site. your saying this guys raised and then called your re-raise. there is a strong possibility that this guy raised and called your re-raise with a AQ, KQ, JQ and even Q10, lets be honest we've all seen it happen online. i think its a great fold. especially with the betting pattern, flop: you bet he rasies ( you only flat called that raise - a re-raise on him wouldve been strong) and he then bet the turn) cmon now, so you had to fold aces, you were beat! in the words of howard lederer "NL is about making good laydowns" and you my friend made a good laydown!$10 games are full of KQ , JQ raises ppl always thing facecards are worthy of calling raises with. even when there are already 2/3 ppl in a pot - its ludicrous.keep it real.

[bascomeb]

this is why Limit Holdem is for little boys and No limit HOldem is for grown men. If its no limit all the money is in preflop. No discussion. Keep playing limit you panzies

[cdddc75]

bascomeb said:

this is why Limit Holdem is for little boys and No limit HOldem is for grown men. If its no limit all the money is in preflop. No discussion. Keep playing limit you panzies

Seems to me that you just made a case on behalf of Limit instead of No Limit.Good post.

[cdddc75]

JayPaav said:

lets keep it real.it was a $10 tourney at an online poker site. your saying this guys raised and then called your re-raise. there is a strong possibility that this guy raised and called your re-raise with a AQ, KQ, JQ and even Q10, lets be honest we've all seen it happen online. i think its a great fold. especially with the betting pattern, flop: you bet he rasies ( you only flat called that raise - a re-raise on him wouldve been strong) and he then  bet the turn) cmon now, so you had to fold aces, you were beat! in the words of howard lederer "NL is about making good laydowns" and you my friend made a good laydown!$10 games are full of KQ , JQ raises ppl always thing facecards are worthy of calling raises with. even when there are already 2/3 ppl in a pot - its ludicrous.keep it real.

If we're going to keep it real, let's at least talk about the hand that was actually described in the original post.

[gadzooks64]

Enough already. Tell us what he had!