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#41 babylondonks

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 09:21 PM

View PostNinja Ace, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 11:40 AM, said:

for all those that bet the flop, one condescending question:Do you ever account for your position, stack sizes, and fold equity... or is it "lulz i has a big draw and DN says to mash betting when I has one"?Also, please note we have already picked up more than the fold equity we gain on the flop by betting it and action hasn't even gotten to us and we have one street left.Huge implied odds ftw,Thanks
It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.

#42 Stupidhead

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 09:25 PM

View Postbabylondonks, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 9:21 PM, said:

It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.
QFT

#43 Babylon Is Right

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 09:55 PM

View Postbabylondonks, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 9:21 PM, said:

It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.
He's right you know.

#44 Danege

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:41 PM

View PostBabylon Is Right, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 3:55 PM, said:

He's right you know.
Hahahaha so awesome.

#45 Lucoo_

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 02:26 AM

I love it how a lot of people make the argument not to bet the flop because fold equity is lower when more players are in the hand. So if you are 50% to win the hand, you bet this flop and 2 others call. How is it not profitable to put in 33% of the money in the pot when having a 50% chance to win. And on top of that you still have at least some FE.
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#46 mtdesmoines

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:30 AM

OMG <3 this thread.
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#47 BaseJester

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:30 AM

View PostMerby, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 10:48 PM, said:

Your argument to check back the flop seems so nice when we bink a spade on the turn for the nuts. What happens the majority of the time when you check back the flop and a blank card falls? Now an opponent bets into you pricing you out of your one card draw. Do you1) Fold because you aren't getting the right price to chase your draw, thereby losing the pot?2) Call, trying to hit your draw on the river -- even though the bad price is making you lose money in the long run?3) Raise, thereby turning your hand (which had good equity on the flop) into a semi-bluff with much lower equity?Suddenly choosing to check back the flop doesn't feel so appealing now, does it?
This is a fair criticism. I don't want to be results oriented. There are times when it's better to have all the money in on the flop to avoid awkward turn problems. I don't think this is one of them.After a brick falls on the turn, if we think, "Crap, I wish all the money was already in the pot so I didn't have to fold", what's stopping us from putting it all in on the turn? How are we worse off for adding the decision point after the turn card? On the other hand, if we feel we need to have all the money in on the flop to ensure action for the times we do hit, that's legitimate.Furthermore, we're very unlikely to take a bath on the turn action. We're a 2:1 dog in a $2.25 pot for an equity of about 75 cents. If the villain bets the pot, we make a break-even call from a pot-odds perspective. We paid $2.25 and now we are a 2:1 dog in a $7.50 pot for an equity of about $2.50. The turn action cost us a mere $0.50. If the villain wakes up on the turn and overbets the pot, he can force us to lose our 75 cents. That's certainly bad, but it's again cents and not dollars like we stand to win.
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#48 BaseJester

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:59 AM

View PostStupidhead, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 8:48 PM, said:

Pot equity? Wat? Why are you even remotely concerned with this? Like I get the concept but it just seems so useless. When we hit, it increases. When we miss, it decreases proportionally. Which means it'll just average out to the same as our flop equity. There's no reason to take this into consideration when we're trying to make our decision.
I'm sure you've applied this same concept without thinking specifically in these terms.Suppose you flop quads in a $1 pot. If you bet and everyone folds, you don't think to yourself, "Wow, that bet just made me $1." You don't think that because your equity in the pot is so high that almost all of the $1 was yours already. The same thing holds in this hand, only with an equity of only around 50%. Half the pot is already ours, so semi-bluffing doesn't gain us the total value of the pot. You might want to read Wang's problem on this topic.
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#49 KingJames

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 08:32 AM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 7:30 AM, said:

OMG <3 this thread.

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#50 Ninja Ace

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 08:53 AM

View Postbabylondonks, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 9:21 PM, said:

It's hilarious just how wrong you are. I can't wait until you post in 5 pages time that you've been "levelling" every post in the last week. Seriously though, I am so glad that you have these thought processes, proves that the games won't die for a while.
SMMFD I've been wrong about one post this week and that was the AK/AQ hand I looked at for 2 seconds.You act like I'm some huge long term loser and that either checking or betting this flop will result in losses when it's a matter of deciding how to optimize profit.SMMFD
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QUOTE (QED @ Monday, May 24th, 2010, 2:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just got slow rolled by some random with aces, time to take an automatic weapon to the nearest crowded public space.


QUOTE (BaseJester)
"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

#51 Acid_Knight

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 02:24 PM

The thing is, checking here is OK on certain occasions for balance and deception purposes, but I probably wouldn't pick this exact spot to do it.I think a check is a more reasonable option if there are fewer people in the pot as opposed to more people because I think that with more people, your hand has such an immense edge because you can often get 1 or 2 callers by betting the flop and you can often get played back at by inferior draws enabling you to get a lot of money in as a pretty substantial favorite. And of course when 2 people come along, you're often putting in only 33% of the money and might have as much as 50% equity, which is a great situation for us.If there's one person in the pot, you can bet, you can check, you can do whatever you want. With 3 other opponents, you should be betting because you have so much equity in the pot and your bet conveys an enormous amount of strength since you are betting into 3 opponents on such a dangerous board. If you get 2 calls, you can choose to barrel or take your free card on the turn, depending on what you think their ranges are and how sticky they're going to be.The other thing to consider is that our draw is very obvious. If a T rolls off, obviously we get paid by anyone with a Q, but anyone without a Q is hating life. If a spade rolls off, that's really obvious as well. By betting the flop we make it easier to get paid off if we hit because people can misread our hands whereas if the turn is a T or a spade and we start putting in lots of money after checking back the flop, what else can we really have other than a big hand?

#52 nutzzcase

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 02:49 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 2:24 PM, said:

The thing is, checking here is OK on certain occasions for balance and deception purposes, but I probably wouldn't pick this exact spot to do it.I think a check is a more reasonable option if there are fewer people in the pot as opposed to more people because I think that with more people, your hand has such an immense edge because you can often get 1 or 2 callers by betting the flop and you can often get played back at by inferior draws enabling you to get a lot of money in as a pretty substantial favorite. And of course when 2 people come along, you're often putting in only 33% of the money and might have as much as 50% equity, which is a great situation for us.If there's one person in the pot, you can bet, you can check, you can do whatever you want. With 3 other opponents, you should be betting because you have so much equity in the pot and your bet conveys an enormous amount of strength since you are betting into 3 opponents on such a dangerous board. If you get 2 calls, you can choose to barrel or take your free card on the turn, depending on what you think their ranges are and how sticky they're going to be.The other thing to consider is that our draw is very obvious. If a T rolls off, obviously we get paid by anyone with a Q, but anyone without a Q is hating life. If a spade rolls off, that's really obvious as well. By betting the flop we make it easier to get paid off if we hit because people can misread our hands whereas if the turn is a T or a spade and we start putting in lots of money after checking back the flop, what else can we really have other than a big hand?
+1

#53 babylondonks

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 04:16 PM

View PostNinja Ace, on Sunday, February 14th, 2010, 3:53 AM, said:

SMMFD I've been wrong about one post this week and that was the AK/AQ hand I looked at for 2 seconds.You act like I'm some huge long term loser and that either checking or betting this flop will result in losses when it's a matter of deciding how to optimize profit.SMMFD
There is no right and wrong, only poker. And regarding the bolded, they are one and the same. If you open shoved only aces would you call that profitable? Of course it is, you pick up the blinds. But I'm sure you'd almost feel like a loss because if you raised normally your more likely to have an optimised profit. Poker is about winning the most and losing the least, it's why fixing small leaks can do wonders for a winrate.Also I have no idea whether you are a long term winner, loser or breakeven player. I've seen about 3 graphs of yours from your stint at 6max playing super lag where you won a lot and then lost a lot.

#54 Ninja Ace

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 05:59 PM

View Postbabylondonks, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 4:16 PM, said:

Also I have no idea whether you are a long term winner, loser or breakeven player. I've seen about 3 graphs of yours from your stint at 6max playing super lag where you won a lot and then lost a lot.
LOLremember when you told me about the leaderboards?I'm not arguing about this I don't have a fragile ego. I assure you though, I put in more hands in a month than you do in 6... so unless I'm playing from a cardboard box in the street... wait... sir... SIR, CAN YOU SPARE SOME CHANGE? DADDY NEEDS A LOTTO TICKET AND A NICK OF DA ROCK!
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QUOTE (QED @ Monday, May 24th, 2010, 2:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just got slow rolled by some random with aces, time to take an automatic weapon to the nearest crowded public space.


QUOTE (BaseJester)
"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

#55 babylondonks

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:48 PM

Well, I'm now confused. If that's what you were aiming for then well done. Otherwise I have no idea what you're on about. You mean the PTR biggest winners of the week thing?

#56 krup24

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:59 PM

View Postbabylondonks, on Sunday, February 14th, 2010, 12:48 AM, said:

Well, I'm now confused. If that's what you were aiming for then well done. Otherwise I have no idea what you're on about. You mean the PTR biggest winners of the week thing?
i think he was winner or top 5 one month at 0.25/0.5don't know his point though
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#57 BaseJester

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:02 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 5:24 PM, said:

I think a check is a more reasonable option if there are fewer people in the pot as opposed to more people because I think that with more people, your hand has such an immense edge because you can often get 1 or 2 callers by betting the flop and you can often get played back at by inferior draws enabling you to get a lot of money in as a pretty substantial favorite. And of course when 2 people come along, you're often putting in only 33% of the money and might have as much as 50% equity, which is a great situation for us.
There's a lot going on in that first sentence.1 caller: Doesn't do anything from an equity standpoint, but changes the size of the pot and the hands we're representing2 callers: For any bet size b, we profit half b. (The pot increases by 3b, in which our equity is half or 1.5b, which we paid 1b for.) For example, if we bet the pot of $2.25 on the flop and 2 players call, we profit $1.13ish on the flop action. This is roughly the same profit as no callers.I don't think picking up the dollar either way is the proper focus for our strategy. It's much more a question of setting up the play on the next two streets in the most profitable way. If there's a check/raise, then the villain's range includes dominated draws like 7 :club: 8 :ts and 8 :4h T :5c like you said. But there are far more combinations of two-pair and sets in that range. If the money goes in on the flop, it's a big coin flip.
Board: Ks Jh 9sDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	47.325%	  47.00% 	00.32% 			 25594 		  174.50   { AsQs }Hand 1: 	52.675%	  52.35% 	00.32% 			 28507 		  174.50   { KK, JJ, 99, AKs, KQs, QTs+, J9s, Ts8s, 8s7s, AKo, AcJs, AdJs, AhJs, KQo, QTo+ }

If everybody is thinking the same thing, then somebody isn't thinking.
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#58 Ninja Ace

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 10:52 PM

View Postbabylondonks, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 9:48 PM, said:

Well, I'm now confused. If that's what you were aiming for then well done.
Fist pump succeed.I don't take the intarwebz srsly, so if I ever appear angry there's some form of joke going on.But yeah I was #3 at 50NL when I last left... my game was much sharper than it is now though. But my point was if I was even a slightly losing player I've put in so much volume I'd be broke on the street smokin crack. I'm like a 2-3 BB/100 winrar when 12-16 tabling. Nothing huge but works for me.
Idiot Savant Extraordinaire


QUOTE (QED @ Monday, May 24th, 2010, 2:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just got slow rolled by some random with aces, time to take an automatic weapon to the nearest crowded public space.


QUOTE (BaseJester)
"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

#59 Babylon is Rich

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:04 PM

View PostNinja Ace, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 10:52 PM, said:

Fist pump succeed.I don't take the intarwebz srsly, so if I ever appear angry there's some form of joke going on.But yeah I was #3 at 50NL when I last left... my game was much sharper than it is now though. But my point was if I was even a slightly losing player I've put in so much volume I'd be broke on the street smokin crack. I'm like a 2-3 BB/100 winrar when 12-16 tabling. Nothing huge but works for me.
So are you rich?

#60 Acid_Knight

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:17 PM

View PostBaseJester, on Saturday, February 13th, 2010, 10:02 PM, said:

There's a lot going on in that first sentence.1 caller: Doesn't do anything from an equity standpoint, but changes the size of the pot and the hands we're representing2 callers: For any bet size b, we profit half b. (The pot increases by 3b, in which our equity is half or 1.5b, which we paid 1b for.) For example, if we bet the pot of $2.25 on the flop and 2 players call, we profit $1.13ish on the flop action. This is roughly the same profit as no callers.I don't think picking up the dollar either way is the proper focus for our strategy. It's much more a question of setting up the play on the next two streets in the most profitable way. If there's a check/raise, then the villain's range includes dominated draws like 7 :club: 8 :ts and 8 :4h T :5c like you said. But there are far more combinations of two-pair and sets in that range. If the money goes in on the flop, it's a big coin flip.
Board: Ks Jh 9sDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	47.325%	  47.00% 	00.32% 			 25594 		  174.50   { AsQs }Hand 1: 	52.675%	  52.35% 	00.32% 			 28507 		  174.50   { KK, JJ, 99, AKs, KQs, QTs+, J9s, Ts8s, 8s7s, AKo, AcJs, AdJs, AhJs, KQo, QTo+ }
I have no problem playing a pot with that slight disadvantage against the tightest of ranges showing we're flipping a coin. A cardinal rule of NLHE is that when you're playing a huge pot, you want to know that you're dominating your opponent or flipping with them, which is our result here.I'm not sure why you're afraid to flip a coin in the worst case scenario here. It's a profitable scenario for us and we can easily bet the flop and turn and fold out one pair hands or take free cards or have different options available to us. I think the thing is that you should be happy to get it in here since even when things are as bad as can be, we're still doing fine.




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