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Big Draw In Position


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#1 BaseJester

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 03:54 PM

Posted ImageFeral Cow PokerFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 9 playersMP: $33.91 MP2: $24.50 HJ: $24.65 CO: $17.50 Button: $25.21 (Hero)SB: $11.50 BB: $25.77 UTG: $25.00 UTG+1: $12.03 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is Button with :4h :club: (9 players)UTG+1 raises to $0.50, 2 folds, HJ calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, SB calls $0.40, BB foldsFlop: ($2.25) :5c :3h :ts (6 players)SB checks, UTG+1 checks, HJ checks,
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#2 nutzzcase

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:02 PM

bet?

#3 mtdesmoines

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:15 PM

$2.10 all day and we try to get it in.
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#4 Hector Cerif

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:30 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Thursday, February 11th, 2010, 4:02 PM, said:

bet?
naw
jimmyhighend: wtfu
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#5 BaseJester

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:57 AM

I checked behind. UTG +1 is LAA. HJ is SLAP. I posted this hand because we were mostly in agreement in Ninja Ace's hand that we should play aggressively with the nuts on the turn. Here's a case where I didn't, so I wanted to explore that choice. I think this hand is much different due to having position on three villains.Flop: ($2.25) :ts :4h :club: (6 players)SB checks, UTG+1 checks, HJ checks, Hero checksTurn: ($2.25) :5c (6 players)SB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.75, HJ raises to $1.50,
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#6 mtdesmoines

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:07 AM

View PostBaseJester, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 6:57 AM, said:

I checked behind. UTG +1 is LAA. HJ is SLAP. I posted this hand because we mostly in agreement in Ninja Ace's hand that we should play aggressively with the nuts on the turn. Here's a case where I didn't, so I wanted to explore that choice. I think this hand is much different due to having position on three villains.Flop: ($2.25) :ts :4h :club: (6 players)SB checks, UTG+1 checks, HJ checks, Hero checksTurn: ($2.25) :5c (6 players)SB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.75, HJ raises to $1.50,
I have heard a lot that players tend to reveal the strength of their hand with their turn bet. Honestly, I think our flush is very transparent here if we heat up action on this turn card. We have tremendous equity on the flop, and villains can justify defending that flop with much weaker holdings (EDIT: than they can on that turn card). Why are we not pressuring the flop, rather than the turn when we make our hand?
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#7 thavinny9

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:18 AM

you HAVE to bet, you HAVE to raise, you REALLY WANT to get the stacks in. that's the only thing that must be in your head when you flop a hand like this one. don't get fancyand try to get paid only when you hit, you need to make the pot larger right on the flop, if you hit and your opponent fold, you win a bigger pot, if you hit and your opponent don't beleive you, you'll win a much larger pot:D

#8 krup24

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:50 AM

anxiously awaiting your math on why the way you played it is optimal
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#9 TrueAce13

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 08:22 AM

hero bets flop hoping to get the money in the middle...i hate checking this back. A lot of people, a huge draw, we want the money in on the flop
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#10 hartman72

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:19 PM

As played, I don't think a reraise on the turn is optimal. A bet, raise, and a reraise, is only going to be called by another flush. I think we call on the turn hoping origianl bettor repops it. If not, then try to make a big raise on the river.

#11 Ninja Ace

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 12:45 PM

View PostBaseJester, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 4:57 AM, said:

I checked behind.
Sorry for coming in late but this is optimal... heads up and maybe three way against the right opponents it's a clear bet... but when you get a large multiway pot you can basically discount fold equity... no reason to push the bad end of a flip or worse when you can take a free card in position... I think OOP it's an obvious check raise, but opening the pot seems a little silly to me.As for the turn action it gets a little interesting... the min raise is most likely a monster hand so you can prolly get him to stack off right now 9 times out of 10. The question becomes whether or not the other player will come along for a ride often enough to make flatting better... with these kinds of remaining stacks I think a 3-bet call shove is much more optimal than flatting.
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QUOTE (QED @ Monday, May 24th, 2010, 2:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just got slow rolled by some random with aces, time to take an automatic weapon to the nearest crowded public space.


QUOTE (BaseJester)
"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

#12 nutzzcase

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 01:05 PM

I don't see a good reason why not to bet this flop.

#13 Ninja Ace

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:40 PM

for all those that bet the flop, one condescending question:Do you ever account for your position, stack sizes, and fold equity... or is it "lulz i has a big draw and DN says to mash betting when I has one"?Also, please note we have already picked up more than the fold equity we gain on the flop by betting it and action hasn't even gotten to us and we have one street left.Huge implied odds ftw,Thanks
Idiot Savant Extraordinaire


QUOTE (QED @ Monday, May 24th, 2010, 2:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just got slow rolled by some random with aces, time to take an automatic weapon to the nearest crowded public space.


QUOTE (BaseJester)
"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

#14 BaseJester

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:53 PM

Turn: ($2.25) :ts (6 players)SB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.75, HJ raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.50, 2 foldsRiver: ($6.00) :club: (4 players)HJ bets $6, Hero raises to $23.21, and is all inI smooth called on the turn, which I hope on the turn can represent a hand with one spade.
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#15 Ninja Ace

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:14 PM

looks like it's bout to be flush over flush or a set that's calling now donktastically that would have probably gotten it in on the turn anyhow...this is a big hand over big hand spot really, doubt ur getting any value from thin hands unless he sucks at poker
Idiot Savant Extraordinaire


QUOTE (QED @ Monday, May 24th, 2010, 2:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just got slow rolled by some random with aces, time to take an automatic weapon to the nearest crowded public space.


QUOTE (BaseJester)
"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

#16 Stupidhead

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:14 PM

View PostNinja Ace, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 4:40 PM, said:

for all those that bet the flop, one condescending question:Do you ever account for your position, stack sizes, and fold equity... or is it "lulz i has a big draw and DN says to mash betting when I has one"?Also, please note we have already picked up more than the fold equity we gain on the flop by betting it and action hasn't even gotten to us and we have one street left.Huge implied odds ftw,Thanks
The bolded makes absolutely no sense to me. If someone could translate I'd appreciate it.Any ten or spade gives us the nuts. 12 outs twice makes us the favorite to win against the 3 players in the pot (unless someone has a set and the other 2 players can't make a hand). But we do not have a made hand yet, and we should take whatever fold equity we can get from betting. If someone raises us, then we just stick the stacks in and flip. If someone calls then we can either double barrel or take a free river (since it's very unlikely someone will call the flop and donk the turn). Once we flat the flop the rest of the hand looks good basejester. But plz bet the flop next time.

#17 BaseJester

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:19 PM

I don't hate a bet on the flop, but I think it's mostly a range-balancing move. I feel like a check-raise is very likely, and in that case I'm not getting my money in especially good over the villain's whole range. Certainly not a disaster, but not money-making either. If the flop is something 3 other guys who played for a raise could more plausibly have whiffed, then I like a flop bet a lot more.If you're looking over my shoulder, how much would you pay to take over this hand after I check the flop but before the turn card comes out?
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#18 Ninja Ace

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:22 PM

View PostStupidhead, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 5:14 PM, said:

The bolded makes absolutely no sense to me. If someone could translate I'd appreciate it.Any ten or spade gives us the nuts. 12 outs twice makes us the favorite to win against the 3 players in the pot (unless someone has a set and the other 2 players can't make a hand). But we do not have a made hand yet, and we should take whatever fold equity we can get from betting. If someone raises us, then we just stick the stacks in and flip. If someone calls then we can either double barrel or take a free river (since it's very unlikely someone will call the flop and donk the turn). Once we flat the flop the rest of the hand looks good basejester. But plz bet the flop next time.
How does it make no sense... you've picked up on the turn SO FAR in implied odds more than you could possibly ever expect to get in f/e.We do have a huge amount of actual equity in the pot, everyone and their mother has figured that out. What you haven't figured out is the only time we ever play a big pot is when we are CRUSHED. This is a minuscule pot relative to our stacks at this point, and you're only getting action from hands that are way ahead of you. Anything you're folding out you have at least 15 outs against.If this pot was HEADS UP it's a clear bet. If it's 3 way it's marginal either way... but you're BLUFFING into 3 other players. That's honestly just retarded.Think about it... we're basically opening the pot to risking our stack since we can never fold... and one pair stacks off against us in this spot like never. So when we do get it in we're going to be losing way more than the 2 dollars and change equity we can pick up by hoping every single player is on air.You have a huge draw... so it's unlikely that betting is a losing play... but the reality is you'll profit a lot more not trying to bluff the table in a small pot, taking your free card, and getting paid when you hit your bagillion outs.
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QUOTE (QED @ Monday, May 24th, 2010, 2:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just got slow rolled by some random with aces, time to take an automatic weapon to the nearest crowded public space.


QUOTE (BaseJester)
"Mixing it up" doesn't magically rationalize anything you do. It's like you walk up to a pencil sharpener, pencil in hand, and think, "Everyone expects me to sharpen this pencil, but I'm going to mix it up." Then you whip out your cock and sharpen that instead and yell, "Ha ha, bitches, you never saw that coming!" Well, no, they didn't. But you still have a dull pencil and bleeding dick.

#19 BaseJester

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:27 PM

View PostNinja Ace, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 7:40 PM, said:

Also, please note we have already picked up more than the fold equity we gain on the flop by betting it and action hasn't even gotten to us and we have one street left.

View PostStupidhead, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 8:14 PM, said:

The bolded makes absolutely no sense to me. If someone could translate I'd appreciate it.
Our pot equity is about $1 on the flop. If we bet and win the pot outright, we have $2.25 instead. That's $1.25 better than a $1. On this favorable turn, we're getting $2.25 if the hand ends there. So we're weighing implied odds times our probability of hitting against the money in the pot on the flop.
If everybody is thinking the same thing, then somebody isn't thinking.
- General George Patton

#20 Stupidhead

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:31 PM

View PostBaseJester, on Friday, February 12th, 2010, 5:19 PM, said:

I don't hate a bet on the flop, but I think it's mostly a range-balancing move. I feel like a check-raise is very likely, and in that case I'm not getting my money in especially good over the villain's whole range. Certainly not a disaster, but not money-making either. If the flop is something 3 other guys who played for a raise could more plausibly have whiffed, then I like a flop bet a lot more.If you're looking over my shoulder, how much would you pay to take over this hand after I check the flop but before the turn card comes out?
Range balancing should not even be a remote concern at 25NL.Not getting your money in good? You're never in bad shape here. If someone spazzes with a flush draw we are a huge favorite. If someone stacks off with 1 pair, then our A is also live and we're a favorite. Against 2 pair or a set we have 12 clean outs. Against a straight, we have 11 clean outs. We don't have a made hand and we can easily pressure people off better hands like 109, J8, even weak K's if we double barrel.




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