14 replies to this topic

[Pot Odds RAC]

I know I butchered it, just how badly?

Background: My first long session in the New Greektown Poker Room. Nice room. Floor seems much more attentive than in the past. Nice smoke-free environment. Same old crowd at least 50% regulars. There have been multiple huge hands at this table.

Villain: Regular. Everyone (Floor, Dealers, Waitresses, players) knows him. Heavy set white guy. Plays tons of pots. HYPER aggressive after the Flop. I mean HYPER aggressive. His post flop bullying had been working well, but people were starting to get wise to him.

Hero: Very strange night for me so far. My image has been very tight because of very poor cards. Up a couple hundred, but mostly because of just a couple of hands.


The Hand

Hero: $400 UTG
Villain: $450 MP

Pre-Flop
Hero Hole Cards: A A

First mistake comes here. I just call. The way the table had been playing up to now I was VERY confident that someone would pump up the pot for me and allow a possible Check Raise. It was a little too fancy. The entire stinking table just called.


Flop
A 8 6

I don't want to give another free card to anyone drawing, so I lead out for $25
Villain was the only caller

Turn
Q

I don't like the Diamond, so I make my second mistake (perhaps) and just Check.
Villain Bets $60. A pretty standard Turn bet from this guy. He'd been leading out for $30 Post-Flop and continuing with $60 on the Turn on a large percentage of hands and stealing a bunch of pots.
Hero Calls


River
2

Hero Checks
Villain says "Sir, I bet $125"
Hero tanks for a bit and hears Villain whisper "Damn Diamonds" to his neighbor. It didn't sound like an act.

Hero?

[mtdesmoines]

I know I butchered it, just how badly?

Background: My first long session in the New Greektown Poker Room. Nice room. Floor seems much more attentive than in the past. Nice smoke-free environment. Same old crowd at least 50% regulars. There have been multiple huge hands at this table.

Villain: Regular. Everyone (Floor, Dealers, Waitresses, players) knows him. Heavy set white guy. Plays tons of pots. HYPER aggressive after the Flop. I mean HYPER aggressive. His post flop bullying had been working well, but people were starting to get wise to him.

Hero: Very strange night for me so far. My image has been very tight because of very poor cards. Up a couple hundred, but mostly because of just a couple of hands.


The Hand

Hero: $400 UTG
Villain: $450 MP

Pre-Flop
Hero Hole Cards: A A

First mistake comes here. I just call. The way the table had been playing up to now I was VERY confident that someone would pump up the pot for me and allow a possible Check Raise. It was a little too fancy. The entire stinking table just called.

Flop
A 8 6

I don't want to give another free card to anyone drawing, so I lead out for $25
Villain was the only caller

Turn
Q

I don't like the Diamond, so I make my second mistake (perhaps) and just Check.
Villain Bets $60. A pretty standard Turn bet from this guy. He'd been leading out for $30 Post-Flop and continuing with $60 on the Turn on a large lercentage of hands and stealing a bunch of pots.
Hero Calls


River
2

Hero Checks
Villain says "Sir, I bet $125"
Hero tanks for a bit and hears Villain whisper "Damn Diamonds" to his neighbor. It didn't sound like an act.

Hero?

I'm from Iowa and LOL @ description of villain as heavy set white guy. You just described 95% of the villains in any midwest poker room. Anyway.

What position are you in? I'm guessing some EP?

PF: You only get AA so many times and you need value from it. You should balance your range by raising more hands on the lower end of the value spectrum instead of balancing it by limping huge hands on the higher end and getting no value from them. ESPECIALLY in a 1/2 game, which is pretty much, "Let's see a flop."

Flop: It's not that you don't want to give a free card. We never want to give free cards unless we flop quads or a straight flush. We've been given a huge hand to work with and what we want is VALUE from this hand, and we need to best determine how to get it. Since you've defined this guys range as ATC, it's going to be harder to figure out what he's holding and how many chips he's willing to part with, or if we can stimulate a bluff from him.

Turn: We're never checking here.

River: It's a total brick.

Played correctly, the hand probably goes like this:
PF: raise to standard raise (anywhere from 12-25 in a 1/2 live game)
Our pot is probably going to be around $100 at the flop, and we're firing $100 at it.
At the turn, we have a PSB left and we're putting it in.
Sometimes this villain shows up with a flush, but he gives enough action that we'll get it back if he does.

[Pot Odds RAC]

I'm from Iowa and LOL @ description of villain as heavy set white guy. You just described 95% of the villains in any midwest poker room. Anyway.

Yeah. He may have been wearing a baseball cap too.

Seriously, he was the prototype of the Midwest B&M Reg.

What position are you in? I'm guessing some EP?

UTG

PF: You only get AA so many times and you need value from it. You should balance your range by raising more hands on the lower end of the value spectrum instead of balancing it by limping huge hands on the higher end and getting no value from them. ESPECIALLY in a 1/2 game, which is pretty much, "Let's see a flop."

Flop: It's not that you don't want to give a free card. We never want to give free cards unless we flop quads or a straight flush. We've been given a huge hand to work with and what we want is VALUE from this hand, and we need to best determine how to get it. Since you've defined this guys range as ATC, it's going to be harder to figure out what he's holding and how many chips he's willing to part with, or if we can stimulate a bluff from him.

Turn: We're never checking here.

River: It's a total brick.

Played correctly, the hand probably goes like this:
PF: raise to standard raise (anywhere from 12-25 in a 1/2 live game)
Our pot is probably going to be around $100 at the flop, and we're firing $100 at it.
At the turn, we have a PSB left and we're putting it in.
Sometimes this villain shows up with a flush, but he gives enough action that we'll get it back if he does.

Good analysis. Thanks. Going back to my Limp UTG - I agree that I missed an opportunity to start building the pot. This table had been playing pretty loose. I really expected a PFR from somebody. Again it was clearly too "fancy". I just thought that with my image so far it was going to be pretty clear to those paying attention that I had a big Pre Flop hand if I led with $15 UTG.

We're not afraid of the Flush on the Turn?

[Ninja Ace]

Nothing wrong with doing this UTG if you have a history on the opponents and you're doing it much wider than AA.

On the turn you should be bet calling and if he has the frush life sucks... it's not so much as you have aces but you have top set and the board isn't amazingly ultra coordinated, but not drier than an 80yo cooch either.

[Pot Odds RAC]

Nothing wrong with doing this UTG if you have a history on the opponents and you're doing it much wider than AA.

On the turn you should be bet calling and if he has the frush life sucks... it's not so much as you have aces but you have top set and the board isn't amazingly ultra coordinated, but not drier than an 80yo cooch either.

This is actually consistent with my thinking...

...except for the cooch thing. Stay classy San Diego.

[mtdesmoines]

Nothing wrong with doing this UTG if you have a history on the opponents and you're doing it much wider than AA.

On the turn you should be bet calling and if he has the frush life sucks... it's not so much as you have aces but you have top set and the board isn't amazingly ultra coordinated, but not drier than an 80yo cooch either.

I'm gonna say that almost any/every 1/2 player is going to suspect AA immediately after being CR from UTG. I guess that I'm not saying it isn't profitable, it's just not as profitable maybe.

[FARGOpokerND]

You have severely underrepped your hand here, and being as hyper-aggro as you have made him out to be, this seems like a perfect spot for him to rep a big hand if he is bluffing, and he will be betting less marginal hands (2pr/set) for value on river thinking no way you have flush as you would likely c/r turn or lead river for max value.

Under those conditions right there, this seems like a call.

[Pot Odds RAC]

You have severely underrepped your hand here, and being as hyper-aggro as you have made him out to be, this seems like a perfect spot for him to rep a big hand if he is bluffing, and he will be betting less marginal hands (2pr/set) for value on river thinking no way you have flush as you would likely c/r turn or lead river for max value.

Under those conditions right there, this seems like a call.

Good read.

After tanking for a bit, I said: "If you've got the Flush, you've got me." He deflated. So I continued with: "I call."

He showed the loser and immediately ripped into me with: "You just couldn't get off of it, could you?!? I couldn't get you off it... blah... blah... blah..."

I like to review hands that I didn't feel at the time like I played 100% but got paid off anyway to determine if I can learn a little from the experience. Sometimes it is just results based thinking. Sometimes it can be a new arrow in the quiver.

[FARGOpokerND]

Good read.

After tanking for a bit, I said: "If you've got the Flush, you've got me." He deflated. So I continued with: "I call."

He showed the loser and immediately ripped into me with: "You just couldn't get off of it, could you?!? I couldn't get you off it... blah... blah... blah..."

I like to review hands that I didn't feel at the time like I played 100% but got paid off anyway to determine if I can learn a little from the experience. Sometimes it is just results based thinking. Sometimes it can be a new arrow in the quiver.

What did he end up having?

[Pot Odds RAC]

What did he end up having?

I couldn't be sure from where I was sitting and I didn't want to rub it in by asking (he was steamed), but I think it was Two Pair (Q8)

[trystero]

He showed the loser and immediately ripped into me with: "You just couldn't get off of it, could you?!? I couldn't get you off it... blah... blah... blah..."

lol at ever folding here

since when is HE like Omaha?

[DonkSlayer]

My first thought of the words you overheard was that he was pissed the 3rd diamond came, but because he thought that would kill some calls from AK, etc. I'd snapcall. Not sure of any value in raising, especially since you don't have Ad.

[Ninja Ace]

I'm gonna say that almost any/every 1/2 player is going to suspect AA immediately after being CR from UTG. I guess that I'm not saying it isn't profitable, it's just not as profitable maybe.

I rarely choose to do it with AA cuz it's the nuts, but at the right tables I'll pick a lot of other premium hands esp AK

[rrumsey]

given your reads:
as played, snap call to be honest. he is aggro, and you have a great bluff catcher

how i would have done it, block bet/ bluff turn. or maybe a check raise. c/c s reasonable, but you need to know you are snapping anything off on a none diamond river doing it. C/r has some merit to be honest. i fire a second barrel thou. Even better if you have had a history of barreling semi often. depends on what reads we think he has.

what did you do with your few big hands that night. I turn my hand into a bluff and 2nd barrel turn, and fire a 3rd barrel on blank rivers if he call.

where you worried he would raise a bet on the turn with air?

[SwolyswoND]

given your reads:
as played, snap call to be honest. he is aggro, and you have a great bluff catcher WTF at top set being a bluff catcher

how i would have done it, block bet/ bluff turn. WTF at "bluffing" or "blocking" with top set or maybe a check raise. c/c s reasonable, but you need to know you are snapping anything off on a none diamond river doing it. C/r has some merit to be honest. i fire a second barrel thou. Even better if you have had a history of barreling semi often. depends on what reads we think he has.

what did you do with your few big hands that night. I turn my hand into a bluff and 2nd barrel turn LOL just as above at "bluffing" with top set, and fire a 3rd barrel on blank rivers if he call.

where you worried he would raise a bet on the turn with air?

Rumsey, for the love of god know what terms mean before you just throw them around