9553 replies to this topic

[trystero]

syntonic I think you're right: he's capable of barrelling here. I'm not giving him much credit...when someone's 3-betting so widely he can show up w/all sorts of garbage. If he's a thinking player then he knows that you're weak on this board so he'll try and blow you off your fragile pair. Or he's just an aggrodonk and will just fire x 3.problem is though w/88, as we've been going over here, that you need a good board. What do you do on a AK4 board? Do you c/c him all the way down? JT4? A92? So on so forth. So many boards just suck for 88...and when you're OOP, the pair's limitations are only aggravated.basically babylondonks' long block of text

[babylondonks]

bwahahaha <3

[Ninja Ace]

If only tilt worked out this way every time...A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 6 playersCO: $52.86 Button: $27.26 SB: $17.15 BB: $77.85 (Hero)UTG: $25.00 UTG+1: $25.14 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with (6 players)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $1Flop: ($2.60) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4.50, UTG+1 calls $3Turn: ($11.60) (2 players)Hero bets $8.75, UTG+1 calls $8.75River: ($29.10) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $10.64, and is all in, Hero calls $10.64Hero showed , and won ($47.87) with a pair of SevensUTG+1 showed , and lost with Ace King highHero won $47.87(Rake: $2.51)

[Syntonic]

trystero, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 6:02 PM, said:

syntonic I think you're right: he's capable of barrelling here. I'm not giving him much credit...when someone's 3-betting so widely he can show up w/all sorts of garbage. If he's a thinking player then he knows that you're weak on this board so he'll try and blow you off your fragile pair. Or he's just an aggrodonk and will just fire x 3.problem is though w/88, as we've been going over here, that you need a good board. What do you do on a AK4 board? Do you c/c him all the way down? JT4? A92? So on so forth. So many boards just suck for 88...and when you're OOP, the pair's limitations are only aggravated.basically babylondonks' long block of text

True true. I probably would have preferred to have QJs or something.

[Ninja Ace]

Syntonic, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 5:43 PM, said:

True true. I probably would have preferred to have QJs or something.

Nah, I'd prefer to have the pair. Yes, a ton of boards make play difficult but an equal amount of boards are difficult for something like QJs. The only benefit to hands like that is when you make a hand it becomes fairly obvious how to play it... ie. flop a draw and suchIf you look at it from purely a set mining perspective... $7 to call with 13 in the pot and 90 implied... you're hovering around the breakeven point. So you only need a minor edge against the villain to profitIf you think he's better than you post flop or if you're unsure how to approach his playstyle, nit up for the time being until you get more info

[jmbreslin]

Holy hell, I've completely lost track of this thread.

[Ninja Ace]

jmbreslin, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 6:04 PM, said:

Holy hell, I've completely lost track of this thread.

It's a chatroom

[CobaltBlue]

babylondonks, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 10:47 PM, said:

I don't really like the root beer there Cobalt OOP because that board just smacks him in his face and he can happily float a ton of backdoor draws etc

Oh...I'm not advocating it's definitely the best play. Just an option. Like, I'm always surprised at how often I go ahead and win with my small flop c-bet. If we get raised, we can fold or come over the top if we choose. If we get flatted, we have a decent number of options on the turn.Granted, the board texture/stack sizes/hand here are much better than in that hand, but this really is one of my of my favorite things...v1.11Feral Cow PokerFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.50/$1 - 6 playersSB: $100.80 (Hero)BB: $198.00 UTG: $187.50 UTG+1: $345.90 CO: $100.00 Button: $146.55 Preflop: ($1.50) Hero is SB with : : (6 players)3 folds, Button raises to $3, Hero raises to $11, BB folds, Button calls $8Flop: ($23.00) : : : (2 players)Hero bets $6, Button raises to $15, Hero raises to $89.80, and is all in, Button foldsHero won $50.35(Rake: $2.65)Also, it's possibly wrong, but I call with the 88 a decent chunk of the time. If villain's 3-betting that much, I also expect him to be barreling a lot...especially in position. I know that the general consensus is that if villain's loose, he'll have less to pay us off with, but when someone's spewing that much, I don't expect that to be a huge consideration (I believe we're getting the correct implied). You guys keep noting terrible boards for our hand, but there are decent non-set boards too. If this were a competent LAG, I think folding can be correct, but I don't think that's what we're likely dealing with. All that said, I also don't mind 4-bet/call.

[vbnautilus]

CobaltBlue, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 8:10 PM, said:

Could always root beer it.

what does that mean?

[babylondonks]

vbnautilus, on Wednesday, March 31st, 2010, 3:29 PM, said:

what does that mean?

that boy needs therapyIt's a concept (I believe) Raptor thought up, and it's basically where instead of cbetting the usual 50%+ of pot, you cbet a much smaller amount, around 1/3. This is to give you more room to play on later streets and to allow your opponent to get confused and basically spazz out, whilst making your bets cheaper.And yeah cobalt it's a ton better on that flop, although you're not repping a ton by jamming imo.Again for flatting the 88 OOP. Like, you have to remember that even if you flat once and call down or whatever, meta-game wise that will only work once, and it's almost certainly only marginally +ev, if at all. Once he sees that and adjusts, you're never going to really show a profit with it again vs that player.

[Ninja Ace]

vbnautilus, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 8:29 PM, said:

what does that mean?

Quote

I haven’t played a ton of nl lately. Maybe I’ll make up a cool hand.Oooooh actually, I’ll tell you about a play I like. I didn’t name it but I think I’ll call it the ‘Root Beer’.$10k stacks.Loose semi-aggro decent player opens to $350 from the HJ at 50/100. I make it $1300 from SB with AJss or KK.Flop T54 two spades. ($2700)I give him the root beer and bet $650He usually won’t have a hand, but he won’t want to fold for $650 into that pot. So he can either return my root beer and make it $2500 (I shove, he folds usually), or he can make a float.Let’s say he chooses to float, which he will fairly often.Turn Qo or T or 7o, or whatever.There are two options I like on the turn after I root beer the flop.One is a check shove. That’s kind’ve the logical one, right? We’ve forced them to float, so we should let them bluff. But sometimes they check behind, and sometimes they have a weak made hand.What I like to do more is bet $1500 into the $4000.What usually happens is that they fold, since they don’t have a hand. But a lot of times what happens is they think “hmmmm I can’t call this, I have 4 outs/no outs/bottom pair. But why did I float then? To take away this pot. RAISE”They make it $4k and I shove and they fold. Tada!It also works nicely with bluffs because you lay yourself a nice price.

[Ninja Ace]

babylondonks, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 8:56 PM, said:

Again for flatting the 88 OOP. Like, you have to remember that even if you flat once and call down or whatever, meta-game wise that will only work once, and it's almost certainly only marginally +ev, if at all. Once he sees that and adjusts, you're never going to really show a profit with it again vs that player.

Assuming the next time we get in that spot we're holding the same type of hand

[fighter]

babylondonks, on Wednesday, March 31st, 2010, 2:56 PM, said:

that boy needs therapyIt's a concept (I believe) Raptor thought up, and it's basically where instead of cbetting the usual 50%+ of pot, you cbet a much smaller amount, around 1/3. This is to give you more room to play on later streets and to allow your opponent to get confused and basically spazz out, whilst making your bets cheaper.And yeah cobalt it's a ton better on that flop, although you're not repping a ton by jamming imo.Again for flatting the 88 OOP. Like, you have to remember that even if you flat once and call down or whatever, meta-game wise that will only work once, and it's almost certainly only marginally +ev, if at all. Once he sees that and adjusts, you're never going to really show a profit with it again vs that player.

Mr Gelfond gave it the name root beer and explained it in his well. Ninja Ace is quoting the original well post.nice reference babylondonks, Didn't need the photo though

[Stupidhead]

Calling with hands like 88 to 3bets OOP just leaves us in rly rly gross spots. I'm all for playing back against light 3betters, but it's not going to be easy calling multiple barrels and be confident that we're ahead. How would we handle a double barrel on a Q65J board? AKQ4? K1057? Even boards like K752? Q623? The times we are ever super comfortable is when we manage to have an overpair, which is so so rare.For players grinding the lower limits, this is a spot where I'd just fold and save ourselves the trouble. If we want to call, we have to be able to put villain on a range of hands he can have, and know which types of boards he will fire air at. Against someone I don't have much history with, I'd just fold because I'd just be guessing and making too many mistakes. But against a reg that I've seen many times, I'll know if he folds to check-raises a lot, if he's only capable of firing 1 barrel, or if he's going to be barrelling ATC on any board. So if we have a solid enough read on our opponent and we have enough experience to know what to do on most/all boards, I'd at least see a flop.And against a maniac I'd much rather 4bet/get it in rather than calling.

[babylondonks]

pretty sure we did ainecsighhhh my pc just like frozeee and nothing works except for stars and firefox. I have an important tourney to mincash damnit

[Ninja Ace]

babylondonks, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 9:43 PM, said:

pretty sure we did ainecsighhhh my pc just like frozeee and nothing works except for stars and firefox. I have an important tourney to mincash damnit

lay off the pornreformat time

[Ninja Ace]

Stupidhead, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 9:43 PM, said:

The times we are ever super comfortable is when we manage to have an overpair, which is so so rare.

Actually, these are probably the WORST boards to be facing a double barrel imothe boards we like facing a double barrel that are non set include single overcard boards, any paired board, any board which gives us a straight draw, gutter or otherwise, and medium drawy boards (non-broadway)

[babylondonks]

yeah I agree, 45273 boards would make me cry with 88.Also ffs how does a tourney with a 15k prizepool only pay 2.7k to first

[Ninja Ace]

wtf I thought first was a mandatory 30% now a days... ghey

[Stupidhead]

Ninja Ace, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 10:51 PM, said:

Actually, these are probably the WORST boards to be facing a double barrel imothe boards we like facing a double barrel that are non set include single overcard boards, any paired board, any board which gives us a straight draw, gutter or otherwise, and medium drawy boards (non-broadway)

Yea I agree. Didn't think completely through on that.Though I think that enforces the point that a ton of boards suck to call down on.