9553 replies to this topic

[KingJames]

Manign, on Sunday, March 28th, 2010, 2:44 PM, said:

I don't know, no input?

Yeah, you're post doesn't make much sense.You could 3bet isolate the sb preflop

[IBFT]

CobaltBlue, on Saturday, March 27th, 2010, 2:11 AM, said:

Going for my second month of Iron Man. Four-table 50NL Rush for 45 minutes per day. Rinse. Repeat.

So that IS you playing rush. Saw the name a lot lately (but now at 100NL, so I guess you've moved up?), was wondering if it was you. You're not all that much fun to play against, but its somewhat offset by the whole 'reset dynamics after each hand' set up. As for Iron Man - yea, Rush, especially if you can play during rush happy hour, is really a great way to keep your status. If its a day where I'm not really in to playing or the tables aren't good, 30mins during happy hour for the 200 points, and then save my heavy grinding days for when I'm focused.14th month in a row of Iron level, holding out hope that they come through with their promise to upgrade the Iron Man program.

[Manign]

What do you do when you're on the turn with 10+ outs, but don't actually have anything yet? Personally. Also, is it a good thing I win most of my pots without going to showdown?

[SwolyswoND]

Manign, on Sunday, March 28th, 2010, 11:53 PM, said:

What do you do when you're on the turn with 10+ outs, but don't actually have anything yet? Personally. Also, is it a good thing I win most of my pots without going to showdown?

This question is way too general for us to answer. We would need to know position, stack sizes, preflop and flop action, your hand, and the board - at a minimum.

[Manign]

This is the hand...Moooooooooooraaawwwr.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.01/$0.02 - 5 playersUTG: $1.77 CO: $1.90 Button: $1.10 SB: $1.38 BB: $1.10 (Hero)Preflop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with (5 players)UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.06, Hero calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04Flop: ($0.18) (3 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checksTurn: ($0.18) (3 players)SB checks, Hero checks, UTG HAHA

[Nashtak]

Feral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.02/$0.05 - 6 playersButton: $5.05 SB: $3.95 BB: $11.72 (Hero)UTG: $6.30 UTG+1: $2.00 CO: $2.25 Preflop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with (6 players)UTG raises to $0.20, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, UTG calls $0.40Flop: ($1.22) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG checksTurn: ($1.22) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80River: ($2.82) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $1.20, Hero calls $1.20

[fighter]

Nashtak, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 3:14 PM, said:

Feral Cow PokerPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em $0.02/$0.05 - 6 playersButton: $5.05 SB: $3.95 BB: $11.72 (Hero)UTG: $6.30 UTG+1: $2.00 CO: $2.25 Preflop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with (6 players)UTG raises to $0.20, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, UTG calls $0.40Flop: ($1.22) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG checksTurn: ($1.22) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80River: ($2.82) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $1.20, Hero calls $1.20

I can see reasons for not betting flop, but I hate the turn check.

[Nashtak]

fighter, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 1:31 AM, said:

I can see reasons for not betting flop, but I hate the turn check.

Why? How does this turn put us ahead of any hands that could have hit the flop? Unless you put him on QJ...

[babylondonks]

wat? Why on earth wouldn't you value bet?

[Nashtak]

babylondonks, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 2:51 AM, said:

wat? Why on earth wouldn't you value bet?

I lose to AA, QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ both on the flop and the turn. I don't know how often he's gonna have one of those hands but i tend to believe that he's more likely in that range if he called my 3-bet. I can only get value from like... A10, Kings and maybe Q10 or J10? Or to be fair a couple of hands a donk would overplay there like any mid-ace he would actually call a 3-bet with (he was a winning player over something like 80k hands so i at least give credits for not being a massive lagtard). We are both pretty deep and i'm out of position on this, well, not draw heavy but certainly dangerous board so i don't want to commit myself to the pot. So i'm either way behind or way ahead on the turn. If i bet and he folds, then i win a pot i was pretty much destined to win anyway. If i bet and he calls, i'm still unsure if he's ahead or behind; i simply increased the pot in the process and may commit myself if he raises. So i thought i would just check/call it down. This way, i might get value from the hands i beat that he wouldn't call with otherwise (he's pretty aggro). The flaw is that i might win a small pot against A10 but lose a big one against AQ but that doesn't seem as bad as losing a bigger pot if he has QQ/JJ or winning the pot as it is if i bet, which is as small as i can win it.I might have gave him too much credits on his range tho. I might also have a flawed logic, even though it seems to make sense to me.

[CobaltBlue]

IBFT, on Sunday, March 28th, 2010, 11:41 PM, said:

So that IS you playing rush. Saw the name a lot lately (but now at 100NL, so I guess you've moved up?), was wondering if it was you. You're not all that much fun to play against, but its somewhat offset by the whole 'reset dynamics after each hand' set up. As for Iron Man - yea, Rush, especially if you can play during rush happy hour, is really a great way to keep your status. If its a day where I'm not really in to playing or the tables aren't good, 30mins during happy hour for the 200 points, and then save my heavy grinding days for when I'm focused.14th month in a row of Iron level, holding out hope that they come through with their promise to upgrade the Iron Man program.

I have "moved up" for the most part, yeah. =) I knew I recognized your name too, but I couldn't remember if it was just from playing Rush or elsewhere. I do recall noticing your stack and play being pretty tough/solid. Trying to remember if we've played any hands of note.I did get sort of kicked in the teeth yesterday afternoon...played like 3 hours and dumped 7.5 buyins with KK < AA, KK < QQ, AK < KK, QQ < KK, AA < AA, KK < 97o, and flop trips < flop 7-high no draws. Also had to make some sort of ridiculous laydowns with overpairs. Oh...actually, now that I'm thinking about it...was that KK < AA against you? (A third guy couldn't get away from JJ in the easiest spot ever.)That said, I made a good bit back last night.

[IBFT]

CobaltBlue, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 8:47 AM, said:

I have "moved up" for the most part, yeah. =) I knew I recognized your name too, but I couldn't remember if it was just from playing Rush or elsewhere. I do recall noticing your stack and play being pretty tough/solid. Trying to remember if we've played any hands of note.I did get sort of kicked in the teeth yesterday afternoon...played like 3 hours and dumped 7.5 buyins with KK < AA, KK < QQ, AK < KK, QQ < KK, AA < AA, KK < 97o, and flop trips < flop 7-high no draws. Also had to make some sort of ridiculous laydowns with overpairs. Oh...actually, now that I'm thinking about it...was that KK < AA against you? (A third guy couldn't get away from JJ in the easiest spot ever.)That said, I made a good bit back last night.

Yea, that was me. That was really well played by the JJ guy. UTG opens, UTG+1 3bets, he CCs in MP, UTG 4-bets, UTG+1 shoves, well, they both have AK, I'm a huge favourite!But, to your other part - the swongs in rush are the worst. You can be having a great session and in the last 15 minutes dump off 3 buy ins without even noticing. Or, you can do what I prefer to do, and start out stuck 10 buy ins, go into hyper tilt mode (which works surprisingly well in rush), and get it all back quickly. Definitely helps raise your pain threshold.small edit: I would say the swongs are mostly due to the fact that they could change Rush Poker ™ to 3-Bet Poker ™, and it would still be fairly accurate. I think its funny to see so many regs play so exploitably with their high 3-bet % AND their really poor 3-bet/4-bet sizing. Nothing better than opening for 2.5 or 3x otb and having some reg 3-bet to 12+bbs.

[CobaltBlue]

Something else that I've noticed about Rush is that sometimes shorter stacks will just open-shove for 18bb or more...and it's almost always a junky ace or king. Like, I noticed a guy open-shoved for 35bb UTG (6-max) the other day. It folded to me with AJs on the button. I didn't quite snap-call him per se, but I was pretty comfortable making that call. He had KQo. We chopped when the board came 99898.The 3-bet/4-bet dynamic that you're talking about has been pretty interesting. When I'm working on 100bb stacks, it has forced me to get a lot better at that aspect of the game. As I get deeper, I tend to revert back to seeing more flops.Further on that KK < AA hand...when you 4-bet me, I really wasn't happy and kicked myself for 3-betting. Like, a small part of me definitely wanted to fold. Debating if it's possible. It definitely isn't an easy thing. Think you might've played AK or QQ like that?

[IBFT]

CobaltBlue, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 9:58 AM, said:

Something else that I've noticed about Rush is that sometimes shorter stacks will just open-shove for 18bb or more...and it's almost always a junky ace or king. Like, I noticed a guy open-shoved for 35bb UTG (6-max) the other day. It folded to me with AJs on the button. I didn't quite snap-call him per se, but I was pretty comfortable making that call. He had KQo. We chopped when the board came 99898.The 3-bet/4-bet dynamic that you're talking about has been pretty interesting. When I'm working on 100bb stacks, it has forced me to get a lot better at that aspect of the game. As I get deeper, I tend to revert back to seeing more flops.

Yea, this is an interesting side effect. There's obviously a lot of bad play at normal 50, 100 and 200NL. But, for some unknown reason, in rush people do completely insane things. I think, perhaps, the quick pace of the game intensifies the tilt factor for some players. It's moving so fast that you don't realize that you are losing your mind. Example: I hit a set over set against a reg. Over the next 5 minutes he 3-bet jammed over my normal opens with QTos, 98s, and 47os. I have like 5000 hands on the guy and have never seen him tilt before. Also see a lot more really insane bluffing. Maybe it has to do with the increased pot sizes due to the extra 3-betting, but I've seen a ton of pots where a player puts in like 75% of their stack and then folds with card(s) to come.As for the dynamic - yea, its interesting. I don't know how it will translate to non-rush. I've always been bad at the 3-betting aspect of poker, its my biggest leak. I'm hoping Rush has improved that aspect of my game. I'm certainly getting a ton of practice. Also helping is now that *I'M* 3-betting more, and seeing more lines taken against that, it's given me some insight into what people are thinking when they 3-bet me and I call or raise them. One thing I'll add, and I think this really helps get extra action - if you raise smaller, 3-bet smaller, and 4-bet smaller than your average reg (ie, don't press pot or go bigger than pot, unless the situation calls for it) people always think you're bluffing. Example, my 3-bets are always to just 9bb, given 100bb stacks. And my 4-bets are usually to around 20ish bbs (if its heads up and the 3-bet wasn't huge. If they 3-bet to like 12bbs, then i have to make it bigger, otherwise they are getting insane odds to crush my soul). People see the smaller bet size and think 'omg, room to bluff!', and then just start shoving.Only problem is when you go like 3 days in a row where you're running into the top of everyone's range and you have like AQ/AJ/JJ, and you get a nice, red ass from the beating.

Quote

Further on that KK < AA hand...when you 4-bet me, I really wasn't happy and kicked myself for 3-betting. Like, a small part of me definitely wanted to fold. Debating if it's possible. It definitely isn't an easy thing. Think you might've played AK or QQ like that?

I don't want to become too exploitable and give away the family secrets, but I'll say this - I would have folded AK pretty quickly in that spot. You're solid, you don't get out of line, and you're 3-betting my UTG raise from UTG+1. Your range is super narrow in that spot.The JJ guy brought an interesting dynamic to the hand. He seemed content with calling and never raising, if you had CCed my open and then he CCs, I wonder what happens on a 775 board with him in there. I guess, however, there's a chance that, at that point, we would have gotten squeezed by someone later in the hand, don't remember that specific table at the moment.Also, his cold call makes it hard to not widen my 4-betting range just a tad. I mean, its a gross spot to 4-bet squeeze as a bluff, but I've seen stranger things in rush. It's definitely a gross spot just given the fact that you and I are two of the less laggy preflop players.

[CobaltBlue]

IBFT, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 9:24 AM, said:

Also see a lot more really insane bluffing.

I've noticed that at least a few times recently. Like, I can think of two hands where I opened with a big ace in the SB and BB calls me with junk (92s and something equally strange), raises an Axx flop against my c-bet, barrels the turn, and shoves the river. Hands like those somewhat screw with my ability to lay much of anything down. =)

IBFT, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 9:24 AM, said:

I don't want to become too exploitable and give away the family secrets, but I'll say this - I would have folded AK pretty quickly in that spot. You're solid, you don't get out of line, and you're 3-betting my UTG raise from UTG+1. Your range is super narrow in that spot.

Yeah...that's why I think I might hate my 3-bet. Just screams a narrow range.

[Ninja Ace]

IBFT, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 6:24 AM, said:

One thing I'll add, and I think this really helps get extra action - if you raise smaller, 3-bet smaller, and 4-bet smaller than your average reg (ie, don't press pot or go bigger than pot, unless the situation calls for it) people always think you're bluffing. Example, my 3-bets are always to just 9bb, given 100bb stacks. And my 4-bets are usually to around 20ish bbs (if its heads up and the 3-bet wasn't huge. If they 3-bet to like 12bbs, then i have to make it bigger, otherwise they are getting insane odds to crush my soul). People see the smaller bet size and think 'omg, room to bluff!', and then just start shoving.

I hope you realize this isn't isolated just to Rush poker... but if you have a post-flop edge on a player you should almost never be trying to get giant raises in preflop. The other thing with 3betting and 4betting smaller is that you can open your range more effectively... when you're mashing the pot button 4betting with AQ doesn't sound too hot

[Ninja Ace]

I run gootFeral Cow PokerFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 6 playersBB: $25.00 (Hero)UTG: $73.44 UTG+1: $47.32 CO: $29.45 Button: $24.74 SB: $24.79 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with (6 players)UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero raises to $1.50, UTG folds, Button calls $1.25, SB foldsFlop: ($3.50) (2 players)Hero bets $3.50, Button raises to $11.84, Hero raises to $23.50, and is all in, Button calls $11.40, and is all inTurn: ($49.98) (2 players)River: ($49.98) (2 players)Hero showed , and won ($23.75) with a straight, Five highButton showed , and won ($23.74) with a straight, Five highHero won $23.75Button won $23.74(Rake: $2.49)

[Ninja Ace]

Thank you?Feral Cow PokerFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 6 playersUTG: $31.87 (Hero)UTG+1: $25.44 CO: $28.14 Button: $22.60 SB: $37.66 BB: $25.00 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with (6 players)Hero raises to $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.75, 4 foldsFlop: ($1.85) (2 players)Hero bets $1.85, UTG+1 calls $1.85Turn: ($5.55) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checksRiver: ($5.55) (2 players)Hero bets $3, UTG+1 calls $3Hero showed , and lost with a pair of KingsUTG+1 showed , and won ($10.98) with a pair of AcesUTG+1 won $10.98(Rake: $0.57)

[droberts]

Nashtak, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 2:41 AM, said:

I lose to AA, QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ both on the flop and the turn. I don't know how often he's gonna have one of those hands but i tend to believe that he's more likely in that range if he called my 3-bet. I can only get value from like... A10, Kings and maybe Q10 or J10? Or to be fair a couple of hands a donk would overplay there like any mid-ace he would actually call a 3-bet with (he was a winning player over something like 80k hands so i at least give credits for not being a massive lagtard). We are both pretty deep and i'm out of position on this, well, not draw heavy but certainly dangerous board so i don't want to commit myself to the pot. So i'm either way behind or way ahead on the turn. If i bet and he folds, then i win a pot i was pretty much destined to win anyway. If i bet and he calls, i'm still unsure if he's ahead or behind; i simply increased the pot in the process and may commit myself if he raises. So i thought i would just check/call it down. This way, i might get value from the hands i beat that he wouldn't call with otherwise (he's pretty aggro). The flaw is that i might win a small pot against A10 but lose a big one against AQ but that doesn't seem as bad as losing a bigger pot if he has QQ/JJ or winning the pot as it is if i bet, which is as small as i can win it.I might have gave him too much credits on his range tho. I might also have a flawed logic, even though it seems to make sense to me.

i dont think u lose to AA here, ever. if u think he called with a mid ace like A 10 or under then u should be betting the flop and turn for sure, u said he might have Q 10 and J 10, u have blockers to his straight and the times that he does hit it u have the nuts so u def need to be putting more money in the pot.

[trystero]

Ninja Ace, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 11:41 AM, said:

Thank you?Feral Cow PokerFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 6 playersUTG: $31.87 (Hero)UTG+1: $25.44 CO: $28.14 Button: $22.60 SB: $37.66 BB: $25.00 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with (6 players)Hero raises to $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.75, 4 foldsFlop: ($1.85) (2 players)Hero bets $1.85, UTG+1 calls $1.85Turn: ($5.55) (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 checksRiver: ($5.55) (2 players)Hero bets $3, UTG+1 calls $3Hero showed , and lost with a pair of KingsUTG+1 showed , and won ($10.98) with a pair of AcesUTG+1 won $10.98(Rake: $0.57)

I can kinda see his logic...3-betting UTG from UTG+1 is always super strong, and that flop is frightening for dry aces.