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Is This Standard? Basic Hand, 2-5


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#241 Royal_Tour

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:23 PM

View PostNaismith, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:20 PM, said:

This was in reference to your strategic recommendation for the hand this thread is about where you want us to check-shove 250 more dollars into a pot where every hand that beats us calls and every hand that we beat folds.
no no, Jesus, i said this like 500 times, I was only advocating a c/r IF he had more chips.in which case it would look something like.pot is 95ishvillain bet 50, a check raise to 140ish is sufficient.



#242 Naismith

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:29 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 10:23 PM, said:

no no, Jesus, i said this like 500 times, I was only advocating a c/r IF he had more chips.in which case it would look something like.pot is 95ishvillain bet 50, a check raise to 140ish is sufficient.
Deeper stacks makes it infinitely worse unless we're so deep that we can get villain to fold an overpair and we have reason to believe the villain is capable of folding an overpair.
Peace,
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#243 Royal_Tour

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:31 PM

View Postlooshle, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:18 PM, said:

Yes, every poker decision has math involved. Its an analytical game, similar to chess, but unlike chess, poker has 2 added variables, 1 is luck, the other is chips.Its this same reason why poker bots dont dominate NL holdem. You can create a chess bot to challenge the worlds best. But a bot to challenge the worlds best nl players is like night and day.Yea but the fact that a game includes psychology and chance doesnt detract from the mathematical portion of the game.We use our psychology to determine someone's range of hands and how they will react to certain actions. Once we get those assumptions, the rest is just a math problem.The whole point of this thread is that your thought process (your psychology) in the hand is flawed by the math you use to react to the reads you've gathered. The fact that there's chance has little to do with anything.
My psychology in this hand brought me to a conclusion. The math in this hand was my expected ev in two situations, 1 - how much i win if i win 100% of the time on the turn.2 - how much i win if i call and go to a river.then 2 brings back the psychology aspect of villains bluffing tendency. the chance aspect is in the form of 13% when we decide (with our psychology) that villain holds one of the 32 combo's that make up AQ or AK.



#244 Royal_Tour

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:32 PM

View PostNaismith, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:29 PM, said:

Deeper stacks makes it infinitely worse unless we're so deep that we can get villain to fold an overpair and we have reason to believe the villain is capable of folding an overpair.
If i think he has an over pair, i dont c/r.. see



#245 KingJames

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:35 PM

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#246 looshle

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:36 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:32 PM, said:

If i think he has an over pair, i dont c/r.. see
the point is you dont know and you cant assign a range of AQo+ AQsYou are so far ahead here of these hands that risking any more money is pointless because he can have an overpair
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

I don't berate players unless they are donkeys making bad plays


#247 Zach6668

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:42 PM

Guys, stop. The existence of luck screws up all the math.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#248 Royal_Tour

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:44 PM

View Postlooshle, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:36 PM, said:

the point is you dont know and you cant assign a range of AQo+ AQsYou are so far ahead here of these hands that risking any more money is pointless because he can have an overpair
I know exactly what you guys are saying.trust me. lol - you cant convince me on this hand. fundamentally, it comes across as odd, since when we assign a range of hands, that range is made up of a number of holdings and combo's. All of which help narrow our decision but inherently we're still making assumptions.But what i'm saying is in this particular case. I dont see it that way. I mean, you can continue to judge my 5 years of poker experience which has added up to 100's of thousands of hands leaving me in the blackor you just agree to disagree. all i'm saying is i'd play it my way.



#249 looshle

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:47 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:44 PM, said:

I know exactly what you guys are saying.trust me. lol - you cant convince me on this hand. fundamentally, it comes across as odd, since when we assign a range of hands, that range is made up of a number of holdings and combo's. All of which help narrow our decision but inherently we're still making assumptions.But what i'm saying is in this particular case. I dont see it that way. I mean, you can continue to judge my 5 years of poker experience which has added up to 100's of thousands of hands leaving me in the blackor you just agree to disagree. all i'm saying is i'd play it my way.
so it's just different this time.bc you think sothats whyand we cant convince you through logic and mathBeing in the black doesnt mean you won btw.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

I don't berate players unless they are donkeys making bad plays


#250 Naismith

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:54 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 10:32 PM, said:

If i think he has an over pair, i dont c/r.. see
So what are you getting value from, exactly?
Peace,
Jay



#251 Zach6668

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:55 PM

K wait. Been thinking about this some more. I'm REALLY interested in your theory on how chips and luck mess with the math. Mostly chips though. Completely serious question.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#252 Royal_Tour

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:58 PM

View Postlooshle, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:47 PM, said:

so it's just different this time.bc you think sothats whyand we cant convince you through logic and mathBeing in the black doesnt mean you won btw.
Its not because I think so, its due to my thought process. In this case, the fact that I make my conclusion by narrowing a persons range to such. ie: 1 or 2 type holdings.to be honest, I'd have to say I'm very successful at thinking through the thought process of villains playing live 2/5 NL. whther their donkeys or quality players. Its my game of choiceIf you told me this was a 1/2 game on tilt, the advice would be fold pf. but if we got into this situation, i'd prob lean towards flatting the turn



#253 Royal_Tour

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:02 PM

View PostZach6668, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 8:55 PM, said:

Completely serious question.
you've seen annette play without looking at her cards. I mean, thats tournament poker, but used as an example, it illustrates how the cards you hold are only but a small portion of the game you're playing.so if we dont even know our hand, how can we use math as the deciding factor?



#254 Syntonic

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:08 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 9:02 PM, said:

you've seen annette play without looking at her cards. I mean, thats tournament poker, but used as an example, it illustrates how the cards you hold are only but a small portion of the game you're playing.so if we dont even know our hand, how can we use math as the deciding factor?
You're forgetting about the other elements of game theory that apply to poker. Such as position, bet sizing, statistics, etc.If you don't use math (and I mean factoring in all these elements), then your decisions boil down to: well I just feel like he is bluffing.The math allows you to make smart decisions, not perfect ones.
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#255 Royal_Tour

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:13 PM

View PostSyntonic, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 9:08 PM, said:

You're forgetting about the other elements of game theory that apply to poker. Such as position, bet sizing, statistics, etc.If you don't use math (and I mean factoring in all these elements), then your decisions boil down to: well I just feel like he is bluffing.The math allows you to make smart decisions, not perfect ones.
who said I was forgetting any of those theories?If you go back several pages and read through my process, I came to my conclusion by various dynamics in the hand.I didnt just say, well, i think he's bluffin, so i'll test it.seriously. firstly, I would opt to fold pf. but if we got to this spot, and my thought was he could hold anything from QQ+ or AK, the obvious play is to flat and c/f the river (assuming again, he rarely bluffs) naismith said this, as did others, which I agree If we turned the hands face up and he held AK, and we held 10,10. I said the best line is the check/raise. snamuh said the same thing at one point.



#256 Zach6668

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:19 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 11:02 PM, said:

you've seen annette play without looking at her cards. I mean, thats tournament poker, but used as an example, it illustrates how the cards you hold are only but a small portion of the game you're playing.so if we dont even know our hand, how can we use math as the deciding factor?
We know our range. It's 100%. Make our decisions based on that.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#257 Acid_Knight

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:19 PM

head asploded

#258 Naismith

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:22 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 27th, 2010, 11:13 PM, said:

If we turned the hands face up and he held AK, and we held 10,10. I said the best line is the check/raise. snamuh said the same thing at one point.
No, Snamuh said the best line is to check-raise when we know he has AK if we can get him to call.
Peace,
Jay



#259 Acid_Knight

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:33 PM

If there's one piece of advice I can give, it's this:Disregard any and all advice that Royal_Tour provided in this thread. He has repeated talked out of his ass trying to sound intelligent about subjects which he obviously does not understand. He has used quotes and idea out of context to back up his arguments which were wrong from the start. Naismith, Snamuh, Zach6668, Looshle and others are established winning players whose poker advice is based on things such as logic, mathematics, experience and reason whereas Royal_Tour provides advice and expects you to believe it "because he says so" and despite the fact that everyone tells him he's wrong, he just keeps going. Royal_Tour is wrong here. End of story.




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