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Is This Standard? Basic Hand, 2-5


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#21 Naismith

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:10 PM

Don't listen to everyone that says you should be buying in full. What they real mean is you need to have a reason behind the amount you buy in for. If you're a better short stack player and play more comfortably with 40 blinds, do it. If all of these people spew money post-flop and you don't, you should buy in full.
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Jay



#22 mtdesmoines

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:17 PM

View Postshynepo3, on Wednesday, January 20th, 2010, 12:57 PM, said:

2-5 cash game, min buy in 200, max 500. I sat down with 200, stack is now 345. I'm UTG, dealt 99. I raise to 15 (standard raise in this game with no limpers). Cutoff reraises to $45. Everyone fold, I call (this ok?). NO reads on villian, he just sat.Flop (pot is now $97)236 (2 spades)Check check - do i bet here? I don't think so...turn is a 8 (4th suit)I check, villain bets $50. This is where i tanked for a bit. I'm not sure if i should have folded, called, or raised...I guess there is a case for all 3. I did call.River is 10 (no flush on board).thoughts?
If I call PF, I'm never checking that flop. As played, I raise the turn. As played, I c/c up to $75 (edit: on river)
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#23 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:45 PM

View Postmtdesmoines, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 12:17 PM, said:

If I call PF, I'm never checking that flop. As played, I raise the turn. As played, I c/c up to $75 (edit: on river)
with 300 left by the flop. and 90+ in the pot. you're going to bet 75ish. leaving you with 225. I'm going to raise any 2 cards to 180 forcing you to commit all your chips on a hand that you've decided to flat call preflop OOP.if you got sneaky with AA/KK/ so be it. but i have a feeling you're folding to mmy raizse



#24 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:48 PM

View PostStupidhead, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 12:08 PM, said:

Why are you so confident? We've been given no reads so I don't think we can have any strong opinion on his general range. How do we know he won't slowplay an overpair? How do we know he's even good? How do we know that he would only take this line with AK/AQ? We simply have no information so we have to consider everything that can happen. It's a bit hard for me to debate this further since I would have never seen a flop in the first place, but raising to protect your hand from a 6 outer is just nonsensical in general.
Ugh, I could just copy and paste what i wrote to you before, but i'd rather you just re-read it.You keep flat calling the turn hoping you're still ahead on the river, followed up by flat calling river bets.if thats working for you, thats fine. I'd prefer to take this pot when i knoow i can.call me thunder keller, cuz thats how i rollp.s. Do you really think you can call it raising for protection? its HU, i'm raising to take the pot. not for protection. I hate to bring up supersystems, but this is a prime example of our some basic fundamentals can be applied in a cash game here.



#25 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:58 PM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 12:10 PM, said:

Don't listen to everyone that says you should be buying in full. What they real mean is you need to have a reason behind the amount you buy in for. If you're a better short stack player and play more comfortably with 40 blinds, do it. If all of these people spew money post-flop and you don't, you should buy in full.
ok Akem (sp?)what happened to him anyways, he was the short stack nazi.. does he play mcuh anymore?



#26 Naismith

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:02 PM

Check-raising the turn is just spewy. Check-raising the turn with more money behind is even worse...until we start thinking in terms of being deep enough to fold out overpairs. Fundamental poker is betting to get called by worse or fold out better. It's not putting in money to end the hand.We're not raising to "take the pot". That doesn't mean anything. That's just a way to simplify decisions, not maximize value. We're not raising to protect with the way the action and the board have fallen in this hand. Raising accomplishes nothing unless we have some reason to think the villain spews off with worse.
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Jay



#27 Naismith

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:04 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 3:58 PM, said:

ok Akem (sp?)what happened to him anyways, he was the short stack nazi.. does he play mcuh anymore?
LOL, not sure. I used to have a great Omaha strategy guide that he wrote that probably isn't relevant anymore.Anyhow, I certainly am not a short stack kind of guy, but I think it's standard for everyone on a poker forum to rail about playing 100bbs when that isn't necessarily what is best suited for the player's skill set.
Peace,
Jay



#28 trystero

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:05 PM

Royal it looks like a clear c/c on the turn. His line says that he's got nothing, so we want him to keep putting $ into the pot w/nothing. We want to maximize our equity against his range, and it looks like this,Big pairBig broadwayIf we shove he folds all broadway and snaps with his big pairs. If we call then we can c/c most rivers hoping he'll bluff. How is it preferable to just try and take the pot down now? It doesn't matter if we call this turn bet and c/c a 2 river and get owned by KK - we still maximized against his whole rangeBut yea fold pf to the raiseedit: yea Naismith said it

#29 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:06 PM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:02 PM, said:

Check-raising the turn is just spewy. Check-raising the turn with more money behind is even worse...until we start thinking in terms of being deep enough to fold out overpairs. Fundamental poker is betting to get called by worse or fold out better. It's not putting in money to end the hand.We're not raising to "take the pot". That doesn't mean anything. That's just a way to simplify decisions, not maximize value. We're not raising to protect with the way the action and the board have fallen in this hand. Raising accomplishes nothing unless we have some reason to think the villain spews off with worse.
wow. you guys are so far off in this hand its incredible. I'd say, flat the turn, and dodge is a safe bet, knowing you're only dodging about 9 outs. but common.If you guys seriously cant tell you're ahead in this hand after his 50 on the turn, something is wrong with the way you think in term of "being in the villains shoes"we're all winning players in NL holdem cash games, live or online, so no advice is generally bad, but I cant comprehend how you all have trouble missing reading this villain.



#30 Naismith

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:07 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 4:06 PM, said:

wow. you guys are so far off in this hand its incredible. I'd say, flat the turn, and dodge is a safe bet, knowing you're only dodging about 9 outs. but common.If you guys seriously cant tell you're ahead in this hand after his 50 on the turn, something is wrong with the way you think in term of "being in the villains shoes"we're all winning players in NL holdem cash games, live or online, so no advice is generally bad, but I cant comprehend how you all have trouble missing reading this villain.
It's not a safe bet. It's the way to maximize your value. Let's say we all agree that we're ahead after seeing his 50 dollar bet on the turn. Give me one reason to raise that makes sense other than not wanting to have to make a river decision.EDIT: For the record, I think the majority of responses are "reading this villain" correctly. Hell, I think you're reading the villain correctly. I just think you're reacting to your read in a totally incorrect manner.
Peace,
Jay



#31 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:09 PM

View Posttrystero, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:05 PM, said:

Royal it looks like a clear c/c on the turn. His line says that he's got nothing, so we want him to keep putting $ into the pot w/nothing. We want to maximize our equity against his range, and it looks like this,
he WONT invest anymore Money On the river AFTER we CALL..He WILL Beat us if he hits anything.We CAN dodge 9 outs 80% of the time. But This doesnt accomplish anything more, all you're saying is you Hope he bluffs his missed hands.Your arguments are IF he has an Over pair, and we flat the turn, and flat the river we get to showdown cheap, with the advantage of having him bluff his missed hands.what I'm saying is HE wont bluff his missed hands, and NOW we give him the opportunity to catch a number of outs that he may have given his range is probablyAJs - AKs + all PP's over 10.



#32 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:11 PM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:07 PM, said:

It's not a safe bet. It's the way to maximize your value. Let's say we all agree that we're ahead after seeing his 50 dollar bet on the turn. Give me one reason to raise that makes sense other than not wanting to have to make a river decision.EDIT: For the record, I think the majority of responses are "reading this villain" correctly. Hell, I think you're reading the villain correctly. I just think you're reacting to your read in a totally incorrect manner.
If you were reading this villain correctly, then you can agree he WONT invest any bluffs on the river (after we call his turn)



#33 Acid_Knight

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:11 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:06 PM, said:

we're all winning players in NL holdem cash games, live or online, so no advice is generally bad
You're proving that this is not the case with each post that you make in this thread.

#34 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:12 PM

View Posttrystero, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:05 PM, said:

If we shove he folds all broadway and snaps with his big pairs. If we call then we can c/c most rivers hoping he'll bluff. How is it preferable to just try and take the pot down now? It doesn't matter if we call this turn bet and c/c a 2 river and get owned by KK - we still maximized against his whole range
I just want to be clear also!I said This is what I would do IF i had more chips behind.. So the c/r is not a SHOVE. it would be a check / raise leaving me with still probably 300 behind.



#35 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:14 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:11 PM, said:

You're proving that this is not the case with each post that you make in this thread.
go back to 4bb.You saw first hand my cash game results, and anyone on FCP can attest I won every single match I played in any FCP event (that wasnt a MTT) against other FCP'ers.you shoulda played me HU cash live when you had the chance



#36 Acid_Knight

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:17 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:14 PM, said:

go back to 4bb.You saw first hand my cash game results, and anyone on FCP can attest I won every single match I played in any FCP event (that wasnt a MTT) against other FCP'ers.you shoulda played me HU cash live when you had the chance
My implication was that your advice was not good. Not that you're not a winning cash game player.

#37 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:19 PM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:17 PM, said:

My implication was that your advice was not good. Not that you're not a winning cash game player.
lolPlease weigh in Matt.would love to hear what you think is optimal. flatting the turn? why? cuz we're ahead and we can check/call bluffs?you think this villain is firing another bullet after we call the turn?



#38 Naismith

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:23 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 4:09 PM, said:

We CAN dodge 9 outs 80% of the time.
I don't know where you're getting 9 outs from. He can never have 9 outs.

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 4:11 PM, said:

If you were reading this villain correctly, then you can agree he WONT invest any bluffs on the river (after we call his turn)
It's impossible for any of us to make that specific read, but it's still irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he won't invest any more on the river. If we raise the turn, he's only investing more money when he has us beat. I don't know why this isn't registering. The ONLY reason we ever raise this turn is if there's some sort of dynamic where we think he'll call us lightly. Let me reiterate this point. It doesn't matter if he never bluffs the river (though *never* is unlikely). It matters that raising the turn only makes us lose more money when we're beat. Raising this turn is a big time losing play.

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 4:12 PM, said:

I said This is what I would do IF i had more chips behind.. So the c/r is not a SHOVE. it would be a check / raise leaving me with still probably 300 behind.
Check-raising the turn with more money behind is infinitely worse unless we're deep enough that we've decided we can bluff out overpairs. These are extremely, extremely simple poker fundamentals:We bet to get called by worse or to fold out better.Ask yourself which one you plan on accomplishing when you bet. Make a quick range analysis. If it's unreasonable that any part of his range folds that beats you or calls that you beat, do not bet/raise.In this instance, his range consists of overcards and overpairs. He folds the first and calls the second. Do not raise.
Peace,
Jay



#39 Acid_Knight

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:24 PM

Excellent post Jay.

#40 Royal_Tour

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:37 PM

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:23 PM, said:

I don't know where you're getting 9 outs from. He can never have 9 outs.
3 - aces, 3 - kings, 3- queens. we've put him on a AK, AQ holding. (or I put him on that) fair?

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:23 PM, said:

It's impossible for any of us to make that specific read, but it's still irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he won't invest any more on the river. If we raise the turn, he's only investing more money when he has us beat. I don't know why this isn't registering. The ONLY reason we ever raise this turn is if there's some sort of dynamic where we think he'll call us lightly. Let me reiterate this point. It doesn't matter if he never bluffs the river (though *never* is unlikely). It matters that raising the turn only makes us lose more money when we're beat. Raising this turn is a big time losing play.
This thinking is flawed in this case. Why? Because If you call the turn, Like you suggest, You are doing so, knowing you're going to check/call the river also.You're essentially planning to invest the same amount of money to find out the same result. which is we win, or we're beatHow we know we're beat on turn is simple. He calls our raise, or re-raises. (Now, an argument can be made that he could call a c/r with 2 overs, altough its highly unlikely.

View PostNaismith, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:23 PM, said:

Check-raising the turn with more money behind is infinitely worse unless we're deep enough that we've decided we can bluff out overpairs. These are extremely, extremely simple poker fundamentals:We bet to get called by worse or to fold out better.
I think you missed somethingYou bet to win a hand. If he calls with worse, he's making a mistake. You bluff to fold out better.The only time you can say you're making a bet that you want tp get called is when you hold a monster that you know you're way ahead.you have a pair vs a FD. his hand is worse, there is 100 in the pot. are you betting to get called by the worse, or are you betting to win the hand?

Quote

Ask yourself which one you plan on accomplishing when you bet. Make a quick range analysis. If it's unreasonable that any part of his range folds that beats you or calls that you beat, do not bet/raise.In this instance, his range consists of overcards and overpairs. He folds the first and calls the second. Do not raise.
I eliminated overpairs. i hope you did too.If not.. eeesh.. i dunno what to say.






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