Jump to content


Is This Standard? Basic Hand, 2-5


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
258 replies to this topic

#1 shynepo3

shynepo3

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 20 January 2010 - 10:57 AM

2-5 cash game, min buy in 200, max 500. I sat down with 200, stack is now 345. I'm UTG, dealt 99. I raise to 15 (standard raise in this game with no limpers). Cutoff reraises to $45. Everyone fold, I call (this ok?). NO reads on villian, he just sat.Flop (pot is now $97)236 (2 spades)Check check - do i bet here? I don't think so...turn is a 8 (4th suit)I check, villain bets $50. This is where i tanked for a bit. I'm not sure if i should have folded, called, or raised...I guess there is a case for all 3. I did call.River is 10 (no flush on board).thoughts?

#2 SwolyswoND

SwolyswoND

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,170 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indiana
  • Favorite Poker Game:Limit Hold Em, Razz

Posted 20 January 2010 - 01:00 PM

How many players were at the table? If it's full ring, you probably should just muck pre to the 3bet, as you dont have odds to set mine.Also, villain's stack size is important here. As played, it's more likely that he was slowplaying AA/KK on the flop than it is that he decided to bluff AK/AQ on the turn. He's more likely just to cbet the flop if he was going to do that, so I fold the turn.As played to the river, I just c/f.
QUOTE (Ninja Ace @ Wednesday, March 24th, 2010, 2:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Flops are kind of like vagina's. The wetter they are, the harder you hit them.

#3 Royal_Tour

Royal_Tour

    Sherlock Holmes of butt sex

  • Members
  • 14,322 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 20 January 2010 - 01:06 PM

View Postshynepo3, on Wednesday, January 20th, 2010, 10:57 AM, said:

2-5 cash game, min buy in 200, max 500. I sat down with 200, stack is now 345. I'm UTG, dealt 99. I raise to 15 (standard raise in this game with no limpers). Cutoff reraises to $45. Everyone fold, I call (this ok?). NO reads on villian, he just sat.Flop (pot is now $97)236 (2 spades)Check check - do i bet here? I don't think so...turn is a 8 (4th suit)I check, villain bets $50. This is where i tanked for a bit. I'm not sure if i should have folded, called, or raised...I guess there is a case for all 3. I did call.River is 10 (no flush on board).thoughts?
My thoughts are this is at Rama. (maybe niagara, but i'm leaning Rama)1st. Your buy in of 200 is so stupid. at that game (or any 2-5NL live game in general) always plays agressive and if you're going to play with the short stack, you need to be shoving or folding a lot more.If you decide to play a hand like 9,9 HU to a raiser, then you have to assign him a range, and in these games his range is wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidewide with 17 i's. one i for every hand he might have. 2 reasons for playing this hand passively 1: is to get to showdown cheap without risking big raises or all-ins (which really shouldnt matter, because you dont have much of a stack anyways)2: is you've assigned him a hand that isnt a big PP and you're trying to extract some bluffs.Normally, in this spot, depending on my villain. I would check/raise the turn. (but i'd also have a lot more chips in front of me)which is why commenting on this hand is pointless since you bought in for less than 40% of max buyin. even with your profit, you're still less than 70%as Swol said above me.it could very well look like AA/KK slowplaying because of such a safe board. but You said you have no reads on him, so its also possible he doesnt C-bet missed hands much. so it could be any AK, AQ type holding.This is why i'd apply a c/r on the turn, which in these games reps tons-o-strength, so he only calls or 3bets with the goods.making it an easy laydown.You know if you call the turn, you're calling a river bet also. so better to apply pressure on him and see how he reacts to the turn



#4 shynepo3

shynepo3

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:47 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 20th, 2010, 4:06 PM, said:

My thoughts are this is at Rama. (maybe niagara, but i'm leaning Rama)1st. Your buy in of 200 is so stupid. at that game (or any 2-5NL live game in general) always plays agressive and if you're going to play with the short stack, you need to be shoving or folding a lot more.If you decide to play a hand like 9,9 HU to a raiser, then you have to assign him a range, and in these games his range is wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidewide with 17 i's. one i for every hand he might have. 2 reasons for playing this hand passively 1: is to get to showdown cheap without risking big raises or all-ins (which really shouldnt matter, because you dont have much of a stack anyways)2: is you've assigned him a hand that isnt a big PP and you're trying to extract some bluffs.Normally, in this spot, depending on my villain. I would check/raise the turn. (but i'd also have a lot more chips in front of me)which is why commenting on this hand is pointless since you bought in for less than 40% of max buyin. even with your profit, you're still less than 70%as Swol said above me.it could very well look like AA/KK slowplaying because of such a safe board. but You said you have no reads on him, so its also possible he doesnt C-bet missed hands much. so it could be any AK, AQ type holding.This is why i'd apply a c/r on the turn, which in these games reps tons-o-strength, so he only calls or 3bets with the goods.making it an easy laydown.You know if you call the turn, you're calling a river bet also. so better to apply pressure on him and see how he reacts to the turn
I buy in for $200, cause this is the common buy-in at the game. I know the blinds are kind of high, but if you think about it, if eveyrone is buying for $200-$300, then it's not that bad. Villain's stack is over $500, so he has me covered. I do agree that if I called on the turn, I should have raised. Luckily, he gave up on the river, and I won against his A-K. Had he did another big bet on the river, I don't know if I could've called.

#5 shynepo3

shynepo3

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:49 AM

Oh, it wasn't Rama or a casino. It was an underground poker room..

#6 Royal_Tour

Royal_Tour

    Sherlock Holmes of butt sex

  • Members
  • 14,322 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:23 PM

View Postshynepo3, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 11:47 AM, said:

I buy in for $200, cause this is the common buy-in at the game. I know the blinds are kind of high, but if you think about it, if eveyrone is buying for $200-$300, then it's not that bad.
Oh... my son.. No No.. this is the worst reasoning. if you're playing a 2-5 game and everyone has 200-300 infront of them. you say. "Hey guys, you wanna make it a 1-3 game? or a 1-2 game?"

View Postshynepo3, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 11:49 AM, said:

Villain's stack is over $500, so he has me covered. I do agree that if I called on the turn, I should have raised. Luckily, he gave up on the river, and I won against his A-K. Had he did another big bet on the river, I don't know if I could've called.
So... theres at least one stack over 100bb/s and you still think its to your advantage to buyin short?

View Postshynepo3, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 11:49 AM, said:

Oh, it wasn't Rama or a casino. It was an underground poker room..
even more reason to stay away from the game and find one where your 200-300 buyin will give you 100bb's



#7 shynepo3

shynepo3

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:34 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 3:23 PM, said:

Oh... my son.. No No.. this is the worst reasoning. if you're playing a 2-5 game and everyone has 200-300 infront of them. you say. "Hey guys, you wanna make it a 1-3 game? or a 1-2 game?"So... theres at least one stack over 100bb/s and you still think its to your advantage to buyin short?even more reason to stay away from the game and find one where your 200-300 buyin will give you 100bb's
they do have a 1/2 game, but it's even worse...min buy in is $50, and most ppl buy in for $100. For the 2/5 game, I would say 1/2 the ppl buy in for the min, and other 1/2 buy in for $300-$500. I buy in short, cause I'm just starting to play again, and i figure it'll help me protect myself better.I know, if i dont feel confident, i should play in the smaller game or a different game. this place is close to home, instead of the hours drive to the rama/niagra. I tried playing the 1-2 game, but i feel like i can't beat it, since my game doesnt suit over 5 players per flop...which is common...even raises of $20 or more have lots of callers...i haven't registered a single winning session in that game, even though I've had about 5 all-in bad beats in total.do you live in toronto royal?

#8 Royal_Tour

Royal_Tour

    Sherlock Holmes of butt sex

  • Members
  • 14,322 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:45 PM

View Postshynepo3, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 12:34 PM, said:

they do have a 1/2 game, but it's even worse...min buy in is $50, and most ppl buy in for $100. For the 2/5 game, I would say 1/2 the ppl buy in for the min, and other 1/2 buy in for $300-$500. I buy in short, cause I'm just starting to play again, and i figure it'll help me protect myself better.I know, if i dont feel confident, i should play in the smaller game or a different game. this place is close to home, instead of the hours drive to the rama/niagra. I tried playing the 1-2 game, but i feel like i can't beat it, since my game doesnt suit over 5 players per flop...which is common...even raises of $20 or more have lots of callers...i haven't registered a single winning session in that game, even though I've had about 5 all-in bad beats in total.do you live in toronto royal?
Yeai'm at King/Bathurst.Ive played a couple underground in TO and spent a year playing Rama 5 days a week. My experience with live 2-5 games is to only play them when you can be aggressive.which is what my optimal game style is.I, like everyone, can easily play super tight on the short stack, but you're noot going to last long. you need to be very aggro from position, and even then, you dont have much fold equity post flop.Maybe i'll join you for a game one night if they allow outsiders



#9 shynepo3

shynepo3

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:18 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 3:45 PM, said:

Yeai'm at King/Bathurst.Ive played a couple underground in TO and spent a year playing Rama 5 days a week. My experience with live 2-5 games is to only play them when you can be aggressive.which is what my optimal game style is.I, like everyone, can easily play super tight on the short stack, but you're noot going to last long. you need to be very aggro from position, and even then, you dont have much fold equity post flop.Maybe i'll join you for a game one night if they allow outsiders
Yeah sure, i only started going, but i can easily bring u one time, and then u can go on your own from there. It's Duff/Finch area, apparently there's 2 places there, but I've only been to one. I'm not really familiar with this place, as i just started playing - someone brought me in. Just send me a message whenever ur ready (days ahead of time). I'll bring u there, but I doubt i'll play with u...lol, i'd rather keep my money.why'd u stop going to rama?

#10 Init2WINitHI

Init2WINitHI

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 169 posts
  • Location:Sunny Hawaii
  • Favorite Poker Game:Texas Hold 'Em - NL of Course

Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:59 PM

Depending on the game I wouldn't play 99 from UTG very often - so my two bits would be - either raise more pre - representing strength (play it like you have JJ or QQ in the same spot) or fold. I would fold to the re-raise if it is heads up, as Swolys said - if you are heads up you don't really have the equity to set mine here. I think the $50 bet is light for the pot size and the fact that he raised to $45 pre, so I think a check raise would be good here, but I am kind of a nit and would likely check call the turn and the river and hope he missed with AK AQ. I would keep the pot small since you are playing a marginal hand out of position, but still have a chance that it could be best. There is also an argument for playing back at the river - check/raise or come out with a 3/4 pot size bet too.I agree that a 200 buy in is too light for a 2-5 game regardless of what 'everyone else does' it is better to have some chips to work with - that way if you lose a hand or two you don't get that desperate shove or fold mentality. It allows you to play more 'poker'. If you don't have the b/r for it - step down to the 1-2 or 1-3 game - until you build it up to play for at least a $400 buy in.
Poker Stars - InIt2WINitHI
Tilt - InIt2WINitHI

#11 Royal_Tour

Royal_Tour

    Sherlock Holmes of butt sex

  • Members
  • 14,322 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:26 PM

View Postshynepo3, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 2:18 PM, said:

why'd u stop going to rama?
moved to vegas. then moved from vegas to toronto. and its too far for rama. when i played rama i was 20 mins away. now its like 2 hours for me.



#12 00Lenny

00Lenny

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Favorite Poker Game:NLHE

Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:38 PM

Not to jack the thread (which seems to have wandered off somewhat anyway) but Royal/Shy do either of you still frequent Rama? I haven't been there over a year but I'm wondering how you'd rate the 1/2 game there these days?
QUOTE (mrdannyg @ Wednesday, February 10th, 2010, 7:53 PM) *
You are really good at posting. Please never leave us.

#13 Royal_Tour

Royal_Tour

    Sherlock Holmes of butt sex

  • Members
  • 14,322 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:10 PM

View Post00Lenny, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 9:38 PM, said:

Not to jack the thread (which seems to have wandered off somewhat anyway) but Royal/Shy do either of you still frequent Rama? I haven't been there over a year but I'm wondering how you'd rate the 1/2 game there these days?
i havent been in over a year also.but just talked to my buddy who now plays fallsview all the timecuz he hates rama. the rake is now $6. and from what i last remember, the regs were starting to nit up.but i'm sure its stil juicy on weekends



#14 shynepo3

shynepo3

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:45 PM

View Post00Lenny, on Thursday, January 21st, 2010, 11:38 PM, said:

Not to jack the thread (which seems to have wandered off somewhat anyway) but Royal/Shy do either of you still frequent Rama? I haven't been there over a year but I'm wondering how you'd rate the 1/2 game there these days?
last time i went to rama was when i was 20, (10 yrs ago), and they only had limit hold em..

#15 NoBBiR

NoBBiR

    F34l2 Durrrr

  • Members
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Binghamton NY
  • Interests:Poker.
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Lemon Tennis Hold Me Tightly.

Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:59 PM

Sit full or don't play so high.
"How do they put the ****ing queen in the window?"

Darvin Moon, I hope you die in a grease fire.

#16 Stupidhead

Stupidhead

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 300 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BC, Canada
  • Interests:Soccer, Skiing, Hiking, Traveling
  • Favorite Poker Game:No limit Holdem

Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:40 AM

As other have said, BI full, fold to the raise pre.

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Wednesday, January 20th, 2010, 1:06 PM, said:

Normally, in this spot, depending on my villain. I would check/raise the turn. (but i'd also have a lot more chips in front of me)which is why commenting on this hand is pointless since you bought in for less than 40% of max buyin. even with your profit, you're still less than 70%
This is worse than open folding.

#17 Royal_Tour

Royal_Tour

    Sherlock Holmes of butt sex

  • Members
  • 14,322 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 22 January 2010 - 08:49 AM

View PostStupidhead, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 1:40 AM, said:

This is worse than open folding.
what are you talking about!? (keep in mind, i said I'd do a c/r with more chips... since i would HAVE more chips)he has 2 overs, i'd rather him do what he did by taking 1 stab at it, and i'm coming over the top.you can call and gamble that no paint shows up on the river, but i'd rather just scoop this pot here.its pretty basic hand and play. a flat on the turn is too stationy, and only makes sense if we have no clue where we stand.but this IMO is a whiffed AK,AQ**** Note: which it was. I posted my opinion before results, and I hate to seem results based, but thats exacty what it is. Results...if you wanna know why...the reason i'm promoting the idea of a c/r turn is because, By the time we get to the turn bet, we have enough info on villain to know exactly the type of player he is. Call it b.s. i dunno, but i already know this player is a bit Tight passive, but agressive with the goods. How I came up with that? well he re-poped preflop, to 45. a fairly standard re-pop for 2-5 live, he isnt specified as wild, or lag, so we assign a range that inlcudes all premium hands. he checked behind on a low semi-dry board. he then bet out half the pot on the turn. Now think for a second. Why did his gears change so dramatically, 3bet preflop but now totally buckles. does he have a monster?what monster is out there? its monster or air vs this type of player. and i assign that on the turn when i piece the hand together. and to make it worse, you know if we flat he isnt going to fire the river without hitting. he already shows us how passive he is post flop. and I really dont see this type of player making any kind of big bluff attempt on the river.



#18 Stupidhead

Stupidhead

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 300 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BC, Canada
  • Interests:Soccer, Skiing, Hiking, Traveling
  • Favorite Poker Game:No limit Holdem

Posted 22 January 2010 - 09:49 AM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 8:49 AM, said:

what are you talking about!? (keep in mind, i said I'd do a c/r with more chips... since i would HAVE more chips)he has 2 overs, i'd rather him do what he did by taking 1 stab at it, and i'm coming over the top.you can call and gamble that no paint shows up on the river, but i'd rather just scoop this pot here.its pretty basic hand and play. a flat on the turn is too stationy, and only makes sense if we have no clue where we stand.but this IMO is a whiffed AK,AQ**** Note: which it was. I posted my opinion before results, and I hate to seem results based, but thats exacty what it is. Results...if you wanna know why...the reason i'm promoting the idea of a c/r turn is because, By the time we get to the turn bet, we have enough info on villain to know exactly the type of player he is. Call it b.s. i dunno, but i already know this player is a bit Tight passive, but agressive with the goods. How I came up with that? well he re-poped preflop, to 45. a fairly standard re-pop for 2-5 live, he isnt specified as wild, or lag, so we assign a range that inlcudes all premium hands. he checked behind on a low semi-dry board. he then bet out half the pot on the turn. Now think for a second. Why did his gears change so dramatically, 3bet preflop but now totally buckles. does he have a monster?what monster is out there? its monster or air vs this type of player. and i assign that on the turn when i piece the hand together. and to make it worse, you know if we flat he isnt going to fire the river without hitting. he already shows us how passive he is post flop. and I really dont see this type of player making any kind of big bluff attempt on the river.
Post flop it is very possible that he wants to "trap" us with a large pair thinking "****, he has nothing, I better slowplay". Raising does absolutely nothing for us except protect us from a 6 outer. Nothing worse calls, and nothing better folds. There is absolutely no way you can claim that we are never beat in this spot. Live poker is too LOL to be 100% certain of anything.Yes, it's likely that he has a wiffed AK/AQ in this spot. But we also checked the flop. How can he think we have a strong hand? Calling the turn and then calling the river puts us in the exact same amount of money as we would check raising the turn. Except when we c/c turn and river, we give him a chance to bluff the river. It won't happen too often, but I'm pretty sure it'll occur more than the 12% of the time we get sucked out on. And we minimize our losses when we are beat.

#19 Royal_Tour

Royal_Tour

    Sherlock Holmes of butt sex

  • Members
  • 14,322 posts
  • Location:Ontario

Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:36 AM

View PostStupidhead, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

Post flop it is very possible that he wants to "trap" us with a large pair thinking "****, he has nothing, I better slowplay". Raising does absolutely nothing for us except protect us from a 6 outer. Nothing worse calls, and nothing better folds. Yes, it's likely that he has a wiffed AK/AQ in this spot. But we also checked the flop. How can he think we have a strong hand?
I'd say his range is slightly more than 6 outs. mix in AQ, possibly A,J. because of his position. so any paint in theory. I never said i wanted anything worse to call, or anything better to fold. I want to take this hand down on the turn. Thats my point.for the 2nd part, we're OOP (1st to act). its very likely we check this flop with our entire range. maybe not always, buut when we flat preflop, we're almost always going to check 1st.tell me a time when you wont check this flop? our check raise hand can look a lot like sets, and over pairs, or he could percieve it as air. If he is a thinking player, he would have to thiink our air might be a combo of AK,AQ also. so for him to make a re-raise on our check/raise, or for him to call our check/raise, he has to be certain of this.and if experience tells us anything, its that people hate guessing one 1 particular outcome, so he would have to assume we have him beat.and i say ALLLL of this because I'm very confident he doesnt have a Big Pair. and I'm also very concerned on this players ability to bluff the river when he gets his first bet called.



#20 Stupidhead

Stupidhead

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 300 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BC, Canada
  • Interests:Soccer, Skiing, Hiking, Traveling
  • Favorite Poker Game:No limit Holdem

Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:08 PM

View PostRoyal_Tour, on Friday, January 22nd, 2010, 10:36 AM, said:

I'd say his range is slightly more than 6 outs. mix in AQ, possibly A,J. because of his position. so any paint in theory. I never said i wanted anything worse to call, or anything better to fold. I want to take this hand down on the turn. Thats my point.for the 2nd part, we're OOP (1st to act). its very likely we check this flop with our entire range. maybe not always, buut when we flat preflop, we're almost always going to check 1st.tell me a time when you wont check this flop? our check raise hand can look a lot like sets, and over pairs, or he could percieve it as air. If he is a thinking player, he would have to thiink our air might be a combo of AK,AQ also. so for him to make a re-raise on our check/raise, or for him to call our check/raise, he has to be certain of this.and if experience tells us anything, its that people hate guessing one 1 particular outcome, so he would have to assume we have him beat.and i say ALLLL of this because I'm very confident he doesnt have a Big Pair. and I'm also very concerned on this players ability to bluff the river when he gets his first bet called.
Why are you so confident? We've been given no reads so I don't think we can have any strong opinion on his general range. How do we know he won't slowplay an overpair? How do we know he's even good? How do we know that he would only take this line with AK/AQ? We simply have no information so we have to consider everything that can happen. It's a bit hard for me to debate this further since I would have never seen a flop in the first place, but raising to protect your hand from a 6 outer is just nonsensical in general.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users