Okay To Stack Off With Tp?

[SuperJon 175]

Is this a fold or snap shove?New player, so no reads.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (Button) ($5.23)SB ($17.70)BB ($8.47)UTG ($4.84)MP ($3.34)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, KUTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20Flop: ($0.57) 2, 5, K(2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $0.55, UTG raises to $1.35, Hero raises to $4.98 (All-In), UTG calls $3.24 (All-In)Turn: ($9.75) 10(2 players, 2 all-in)River: ($9.75) 7(2 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: $9.75 | Rake: $0.45

[KingJames 11]

Against like 22,55,KQ,KJ,KT and a lot of heart draws (and you can throw KK and AA in there for lol limp/call UTG to tarp) your're like 65%

[Mills 0]

not sure I like this one, limp calls are quite often set mines... and even though this is a spot where he shouldnt be doing that... it kinda looks like he did.That said, I don't have a huge problem with getting it in.. but dont be shocked if urs isnt the winner

[KingJames 11]

not sure I like this one, limp calls are quite often set mines... and even though this is a spot where he shouldnt be doing that... it kinda looks like he did.That said, I don't have a huge problem with getting it in.. but dont be shocked if urs isnt the winner

Agree with this... it's a set a lot... so we can just weigh the range more heavily to sets and fold to his c/r ;)I dunno... tough spot as flatting his c/r is meh and stacking off is gonna have us behind a lot and needing to dodge outs a lot... plz have KJ

[CoolHandKai 0]

and even though this is a spot where he shouldnt be doing that... it kinda looks like he did.

Please read my post as "curious" rather than "confrontational":Why shouldn't he set mine here? It's 8.5:1 to hit the set on the flop and risking 0.25$ to win 4.84$ seems like a good price for that to me. If 19:1 isn't good enough, at what price is it correct to set mine?

[rrumsey 0]

meh slightly +ev i think, but be aware you could be crushed, that is just the nature of shoving flops with TP decent kicker

[rrumsey 0]

Please read my post as "curious" rather than "confrontational":Why shouldn't he set mine here? It's 8.5:1 to hit the set on the flop and risking 0.25$ to win 4.84$ seems like a good price for that to me. If 19:1 isn't good enough, at what price is it correct to set mine?

i though it was 7.5-1 to hit a set on the flop, either way i only set mine with 10-20 times the bet effective stacks and try to do it multiway to improve implied odds, so not very often

[trystero 0]

I bet/fold flop against any non-spewtard

[Royal_Tour 0]

Is this a fold or snap shove?New player, so no reads.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (Button) ($5.23)SB ($17.70)BB ($8.47)UTG ($4.84)MP ($3.34)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, KUTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20Flop: ($0.57) 2, 5, K(2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $0.55, UTG raises to $1.35, Hero raises to $4.98 (All-In), UTG calls $3.24 (All-In)Turn: ($9.75) 10(2 players, 2 all-in)River: ($9.75) 7(2 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: $9.75 | Rake: $0.45

Well,with no rreads or anything, i'm not totally sure what i'd do in this spot, but what I do know, I wouldnt be snap shoving this flop at all.only hand i can see him call the shove with is a big FD. By flatting, and getting it in on the turn when he leads, we take money from all his range that would have folded the flop.

[rrumsey 0]

Well,with no rreads or anything, i'm not totally sure what i'd do in this spot, but what I do know, I wouldnt be snap shoving this flop at all.only hand i can see him call the shove with is a big FD. By flatting, and getting it in on the turn when he leads, we take money from all his range that would have folded the flop.

thats not a bad point at all

[Mills 0]

Please read my post as "curious" rather than "confrontational":Why shouldn't he set mine here? It's 8.5:1 to hit the set on the flop and risking 0.25$ to win 4.84$ seems like a good price for that to me. If 19:1 isn't good enough, at what price is it correct to set mine?

it's all good, no harm done.How is he risking .25 to win 4.84? you are presupposing if he hits a set all the money is going in... this seems a bit result oriented to me. This is a HU pot... what makes you think the opponent is stacking off if i hit my set?He shouldn't be doing it in this spot because he is out of position in a heads up pot with a hand that dosen't play well for anything besides hitting a set ( if he did indeed have a set, it's 22 or 55) and he is not getting the right price to call.This is a spot where he either hits his set or folds... So basically more often then not you are just throwing away money in this spot.. these spots are big -ev if you do this too often...

[rrumsey 0]

it's all good, no harm done.How is he risking .25 to win 4.84? you are presupposing if he hits a set all the money is going in... this seems a bit result oriented to me. This is a HU pot... what makes you think the opponent is stacking off if i hit my set?He shouldn't be doing it in this spot because he is out of position in a heads up pot with a hand that dosen't play well for anything besides hitting a set ( if he did indeed have a set, it's 22 or 55) and he is not getting the right price to call.This is a spot where he either hits his set or folds... So basically more often then not you are just throwing away money in this spot.. these spots are big -ev if you do this too often...

which is why i said we shouldn't set mine very often

[Mills 0]

which is why i said we shouldn't set mine very often

yea, i was responding to kai.

[rrumsey 0]

yea, i was responding to kai.

just reinforcing what yah said man

[Mills 0]

just reinforcing what yah said man

heh, oh... I'm new at message board stuff, my fault

[SuperJon 175]

only hand i can see him call the shove with is a big FD. By flatting, and getting it in on the turn when he leads, we take money from all his range that would have folded the flop.

I really do like this line of thinking.Basically, and please correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds like you are saying there are no differences between my line and the line you've proposed with the exception that your line maximizes our value when we're ahead.I love hands like these, because they are so common, and yet so complex to me at this stage of my poker "career". It's a bit of a catch 22. In such that on one hand, you feel as though by folding, you are a nit and will allow people to walk all over you. On the other hand, you don't want to be a station/spewtard who stacks off everytime they flop TP. For me personally, learning how to effectively play these hands (win or lose), will be a huge achievement.

[trystero 0]

most players will only flat with hands you beat, even including worse kings like kj/kt. it's fine to do what royal said, or to outright shove, if you have a read that your opponent's aggressive. felting this hand here, in this situation, absent reads, is imo -EVtop pair's strength in NLHE comes from stacking spewtards (true) but mostly from extracting value from calling hands like worse pairs, draws, and lower kickers. it's not a great hand to put 100bbs+ in without reads. once you know that your opponent can play worse hands more aggressively then it's time to start pushing back

[Stupidhead 2]

I shove. Against an UTG limper who does not have auto-top on, I'm not giving him any credit of being a good player. So I do expect this guy to call a shove with KJ-K10 type hands, maybe even naked flush draws.

[rrumsey 0]

I shove. Against an UTG limper who does not have auto-top on, I'm not giving him any credit of being a good player. So I do expect this guy to call a shove with KJ-K10 type hands, maybe even naked flush draws.

meh, i have still seen a fair amount of decent player, hopefully including myself, you don't use it.

[Biff Goods 0]

Please read my post as "curious" rather than "confrontational":Why shouldn't he set mine here? It's 8.5:1 to hit the set on the flop and risking 0.25$ to win 4.84$ seems like a good price for that to me. If 19:1 isn't good enough, at what price is it correct to set mine?

This is flawed math a bit. In order to win the 4.84 your opponent has to have something to stack off with....If you hit your set you are not gonna win your stack EVERY time.

[Stupidhead 2]

meh, i have still seen a fair amount of decent player, hopefully including myself, you don't use it.

But do you limp UTG?

[SwolyswoND 1]

This is flawed math a bit. In order to win the 4.84 your opponent has to have something to stack off with....If you hit your set you are not gonna win your stack EVERY time.

Which is why you need at least 12:1 implied to set mine. That way we require better odds than the 7.5:1 actual ones of hitting our set, because 1) you have to hit the set first 2) you won't always win when you hit the set and 3) villain won't always stack off when you hit the set. As long as you have the 12:1 implied, you can profitably set mine.

[Stupidhead 2]

Which is why you need at least 12:1 implied to set mine. That way we require better odds than the 7.5:1 actual ones of hitting our set, because 1) you have to hit the set first 2) you won't always win when you hit the set and 3) villain won't always stack off when you hit the set. As long as you have the 12:1 implied, you can profitably set mine.

This isn't correct. 11:1 accounts for the times we hit set over set. That's not even accounting for how often an opponent will put his stack in. Some good players will even fold overpairs when we hit. If we're in position we can setmine with lower odds, depending on villains 3bet % and what he'll need to stack off with. OOP I only call 3bets against someone with like a 1% 3bet who I know can't fold an overpair with 100 BB stacks. If we're deeper then there can be a few more spots to set mine, but it's going to be very hard to get full value from our set no matter how we play it; unless our opponent is terrible.

[rrumsey 0]

But do you limp UTG?

never!! ever ever. in a tourny, in cash game, in LHE, never open limp unless im on the button in a passive LHE game.

[Stupidhead 2]

never!! ever ever. in a tourny, in cash game, in LHE, never open limp unless im on the button in a passive LHE game.

Which is why we can assume villain is terrible.